Billie Joe Shaver NOT GUILTY in shooting outside bar

[A-R]

Not sure how this whole mess is necessarily "good" for us CHLees. Of course, it's obviously better than a guilty verdict. But there is still the matter of illegal carry in a bar that Mr. Shaver will have to face. And from all I've read this wasn't exactly a cut-n-dry, black-n-white "good shoot". Jury probably acquited because there just wasn't enough evidence to overcome the presumption of innocence. But this whole scenario is EXACTLY what the antis point to when they say guns should be banned from any place alchohol is sold. Heck, even some pro-RKBA among us believe this as well (my personal thoughts are ban guns WHILE DRINKING, but if you are in a bar and not drinking, then carry should be legal).

The Statesman has been covering this as A1 front-page news all week. So thought I'd share the outcome and open up the discussion.

While searching to see if this had been posted before, found an article from "LAWeekly" that SIA had posted previously. Haven't had the chance to read it yet, but posting it here as it could contain more details about what happened that day: http://www.laweekly.com/2007-09-20/musi ... e-shaver/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, here's the story from today's paper:

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/jur ... 45112.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jury finds Billy Joe Shaver not guilty
Acclaimed country singer-and-songwriter acquitted of aggravated assault charges in connection with 2007 shooting in bar south of Waco.

By Steven Kreytak
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Updated: 10:57 p.m. Friday, April 9, 2010
Published: 10:38 p.m. Friday, April 9, 2010

WACO — Country music singer and songwriter Billy Joe Shaver was on his way to Houston to play a scheduled gig Friday after a McLennan County jury acquitted him of aggravated assault in the shooting of a man outside a bar in 2007.

Billy Coker, the man Shaver shot, looked stunned after state District Judge Matt Johnson read the verdict, which a jury reached after deliberating for less than two hours.

Coker, 53, said he was disappointed but would respect the justice system's outcome. Prosecutor Mark Parker told Coker, an electric company worker who lost a tooth and still has the bullet lodged in his neck, that he was sorry.

Shaver, meanwhile, hugged supporters, including members of his band.

Willie Nelson, a friend of Shaver's, had watched the final two days of testimony from the courtroom gallery but had left by the time the verdict was read.

"I knew in my heart we would win," Shaver said outside the historic courthouse, wearing a big grin.

When asked about Coker, the 70-year-old Texas Country Music Hall of Fame member said: "I am very sorry about the incident. Hopefully things will work out where we become friends."

Shaver's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin of Houston, said it was a fair trial.

DeGuerin, considered one of the state's best criminal defense lawyers, tried the case for free with three associates.

Shaver still faces a charge of unlawful carrying of a handgun by a license holder for bringing his gun to Papa Joe's Texas Saloon the night of the shooting.

Earlier in the day, Shaver testified that he feared for his life when he shot Coker in the upper lip on the back patio of the bar in Lorena, just south of Waco, with a .22-caliber pistol that was smaller than the palm of his hand.

Shaver said he was nervous after Coker brandished a knife in the bar and then asked him to step outside.

"I wanted to scare him ... wanted to beat him to the punch. \u2026 I feared he was going to kill me," Shaver said.

During cross-examination, prosecutor Beth Toben tried to use Shaver's outlaw image against him.

She suggested that he could have just left the bar if he had felt so intimidated.

That would have been "chicken" Shaver replied.

Toben asked whether Shaver was jealous that Coker at the time was talking to Shaver's wife, Wanda.

"I get more women than a passenger train can haul. I'm not jealous," Shaver said.

During her final argument, Toben noted that several witnesses, including Coker, said Shaver fired without provocation. She also suggested he shot because he was angry that Coker told him to shut up earlier in the night.

"He may be a honky-tonk hero," referring to the title of Shaver's autobiography, "and he may have written a lot of wonderful songs, ... but on that day, he was a honky-tonk bully."

Perhaps the most critical testimony came from Daniel Silvas, who said he saw the shooting from his truck after he pulled into the bar.

Silvas said he saw a quarrel between two men, one of whom he later learned was Shaver. The other man then went at Shaver with a knife as Shaver backed away, Silvas said.

"To me it looked like (Shaver) was just trying to ... to get away" before firing, Silvas said.

Shaver said he had spent that day with his wife, taking pictures around the Waco area as potential album art for an upcoming release.

After going to a suspension bridge, a cemetery and other places meant to reflect the spiritual nature of some of the songs, they stopped at Papa Joe's on the Interstate 35 frontage road.

He said he didn't even finish one beer that day.

After the bar's owner introduced him to Coker, Shaver said he quickly became annoyed at him and later intimidated.

Coker at one point poured Shaver's drink into a cup, Shaver said. He said it bothered him, but he decided to let it go.

Later, Shaver said, Coker forcibly moved him to a different table. "I should have stopped it then," Shaver said. "But I was so happy that day. I said, 'Well, let it go.'\u2009"

Shaver also said Coker used his folding, single-blade knife to stir his beer and then wiped the blade on his shirt.

"It scared me because I was in the condition I was in," Shaver said, alluding to shoulder and neck injuries he suffered about five months earlier.

"I couldn't fight him, no way, he was built like a doggone fireplug. He's younger than I was," Shaver said.

Shaver said that when Coker realized Wanda Shaver had previously been married to Coker's cousin, "He went bad real quick." Wanda Shaver's former husband had committed suicide, and there was bad blood between Wanda and Coker's side of the family, according to earlier testimony.

When the conversation between Wanda Shaver and Coker grew uncomfortable, Shaver said he suggested they leave.

At that point, Shaver said, Coker "swiveled around in his chair with the knife in his hand and he said 'Shut the (expletive) up' as loud as he could. It didn't hurt my feelings, but he did scare me."

Soon after, Coker asked him to step outside, Shaver said.

"Next he headed for the door," Shaver said. "And being a John Wayne type of person I went ahead and got to the door, too."

Shaver said he went out first and waited for Coker. Shaver said he watched a member of the band that was playing that night hand Coker something he believed to be a gun.

Shaver searched his pocket, he said, and breathed a sigh of relief when he felt his .22.

"I said, 'Where do you want to do this? Why do you want to do this?'" Shaver said, and then Coker came "stomping" at him. "I was supposed to run I guess."

He said he grabbed his gun "and raised it up as (Coker's) arm was coming up. And pow."

Shaver is tentatively scheduled to play at the Giddy Ups bar on Manchaca Road tonight, club management said.

skreytak@statesman.com; 912-2946

Additional reporting by staff writer Michael Corcoran

[seamusTX]

DeGuerin, considered one of the state's best criminal defense lawyers, tried the case for free with three associates.

I don't know what's with that. Mr. DeGuerin is one of the highest-priced lawyers around.

It's impossible to say for sure, but I doubt any ordinary defendant with a lawyer he found in the phone book would have been found not guilty in this case.

Shaver still faces a charge of unlawful carrying of a handgun by a license holder for bringing his gun to Papa Joe's Texas Saloon the night of the shooting.

That could result in a felony conviction, and I don't see a legal defense for it.

I have to ask what Mr. Shaver would have done if he had not been armed.

During cross-examination, prosecutor Beth Toben ... suggested that he could have just left the bar if he had felt so intimidated.

That would have been "chicken" Shaver replied.

I understand that mentality. It gets a person who has it into this kind of situation.

- Jim

[surprise_i'm_armed]

austinrealtor:

You beat me to the punch on posting this. I saw this on the
news and was just going to append the Statesman article to
my OP on the shooting.

For anyone who doesn't have the time to read the long link
in my OP about this:

Billy Joe Shaver, country music writer and singer, 70, got into
an altercation with a 53 year old man in/outside a Lorena, TX
(near Waco) bar and shot him in the lip with a .22 handgun small
enough to fit in his palm.

BJS is a CHL and his lawyer will attempt to plea bargain with the
court on the charge of carrying a gun in a bar.

SIA

[Dragonfighter]

<hijack>
I'm sorry but this whole thing reminded me of "True Grit" where Rooster Cogburn is explaining to Le Boeuf about Ned Pepper. Le Boeuf asks him, "You shot him in the lower lip?!? What were you aiming for?"

Cogburn drawls, "His upper lip."
</hijack>

[seamusTX]

I'm guessing from the description that the weapon was an NAA Black Widow or similar. They are not exactly bullseye weapons.

- Jim

[surprise_i'm_armed]

If BJS had been carrying a gun of a more substantial
caliber, the knife wielder would be an "ex parrot" as it
were (kudos to Monty Python).

SIA

[seamusTX]

You never know.

If he had had a handgun large enough to recognize as a weapon, the other guy might have backed down before being shot. Or maybe not.

- Jim

[Glock 23]

im no expert on this story.....but it seems to me that the prosecutor saying he should have just left is akin to some on this board saying you shouldnt go out at night or put yourself in a a bad situation

I dont beleive in altering my life around the agenda of bullies and theives. its a free contry and i have the right (within reason) to go where I please.

his old boy attitude certainly didnt help the situation....no arguement there. But if we all retreat everytime we are intimidated....then we have already lost some freedom. And bullies only get worse when their tactics succeed.

[A-R]

Big differences between retreating and de-escalating (which BJS should have done). And big difference between standing your ground and acting like petulant donkey.

[boomerang]

Has Coker already been prosecuted for threatening Shaver with a deadly weapon?

[gemini]

Interesting story. I also thought BJS stopped drinking years ago, completely. Anyway, Coker seemed to be
on a mission to provoke Shaver. Poured his beer into another container, made Shaver move to another table,
stirred Shaver's beer with his knife blade, wiped the blade on Shaver's shirt etc etc.... FINALLY, it gets to
"lets go outside".... Coker has already flashed his knife..... Shaver has not shown any aggression to this point....
Coker approaches Shaver in a threatening move....Shaver pulls his .22 and fires. Jury finds him not guilty.

I've read plenty of posts on this forum where just because a couple of guys, wearing nice clothes, start in
a CHL'ers direction, the CHL'er had his hand on his gun ready to draw, no other provocation, but ready to shoot;
CHL'ers waiting behind closed exterior doors with gun in hand because someone they don't know rang their door
bell, ready to shoot; CHL'ers ready to draw and shoot for a lot less provocation and circumstancial evidence of
criminal intent. A lot less provocation to place their hand on their weapon, ready to draw and shoot.

I do believe in situational awareness, de escalate potential violent situations if at all possible,
but there does come a point when you must stand your ground. Only you will know the exact time and circumstance
you will make the decision to pull the trigger. Only you will know when you feel your life is in danger. Shaver eventually
reached the point he thought it necessary to pull and fire. (I don't agree with warning shots etc) Coker is lucky
Shaver was not upset enough to want to kill him, just scare him.

The carry in a 51% site is another issue.

[tarkus]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

[A-R]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

I hadn't even thought of that angle. Maybe this whole scenario just proves the insanity of the 51% law. The knife guy probably thought he could harass BJS in the bar because "guns are illegal in bars" so I'll just use my knife to intimidate him, what's he gonna do? Not like he can pull out a gun and shoot me - guns are illegal in bars.

Of course, I'd be willing to use BJS as a poster child for the cause if he hadn't also been drinking and if he didn't like to shoot off his mouth at trial - the chicken (poop) comment at trial was just stupid - more fodder for the antis who will chalk this up as an old man with booze bravery getting into a fight with another old man suffering from whiskey bravado.

This is exactly why I do NOT endorse an outright revocation of the 51% law. I think you should be able to carry in a bar IF you're not drinking. But if you're going to drink, leave the gun at home or in the car.

[tarkus]

This is exactly why I do NOT endorse an outright revocation of the 51% law. I think you should be able to carry in a bar IF you're not drinking. But if you're going to drink, leave the gun at home or in the car.

I would support that. Get rid of the 51% rule but keep the intoxication rule. Even better, expand the intoxication rule beyond CHL to anyone carrying a handgun, no matter who signs their paycheck. Bodyguards, cops, feds, athletes, whoever.

[seniorshooteress]

Sounds like two little kids in a schoolyard fight. Both were old enough to know better. Pistol tops knife every time.