TexasCHLforum.com

I thought I would relay what I thought was a fairly disappointing experience that happened while attending a hunting safety course with my teenaged son recently here in Texas. Thought it might be a catalyst for some useful discussion.

The 2 day course was being tought by a state certified firearms safety instructor who was as he let us know, also a certified concealed carry instructor. 10-15 persons were there of whom I believe that I must have been the only CHL holder other that the instructor.

During the process of discussing the actual material for the course, the instructor delved off into CHL territory for some reason 3 times at least but alarmingly, put out incorrect information everytime! The first 2 times I thought to be minor and not wanting to argue or correct the guy, I said nothing. Those two things were :

1. "As a CHL holder in Texas you never have to show your license to an officer period". Wrong. You do have to when carrying only but it is recommended you always do so as a courtesy. Thats what I will do if ever pulled over.

2. "Yes you can carry in your POV even without a CHL but it must be unloaded and removed from the ammunition". Wrong. In Texas one can carry in their car, concealed, without a CHL, locked and loaded at all times where allowed of course. Otherwise what you have is a poorly designed, expensive hammer.

3. This is the one where I could no longer just sit and hold my tongue. He asked the class: "Do you know what your number one priority is while carrying with a CHL is in Texas"? No one said anything. He says "TO STOP CRIME". Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. I spoke up and respectfully informed him that that was patently incorrect but he would not hear it. He actually said the code dictated that we are OBLIGATED to intercede and stop crime. Yep OBLIGATED. "So if I witness a bank robbery, I am, as a CHL OBLIGATED to stop it"? "Yes, absolutely" was the response. After not getting anywhere with him without the code in front of me, one non CHL in the class asked me: "Well, what do you have one for then"? This was my concern...he was putting out bad info, that uninformed people would take for the Gospel. I answered simply "To protect myself and my own, period". Furthermore I stated that I have not had any law enforcement training, SWAT training and am not a police officer nor do I play one in and about Texas. The instructor said "What do you mean not trained? You have the CHL training!" I said shooting 50 rounds downrange and 12 hrs or so of class does not make me a firearms expert, Rambo, nor an officer".

At some point he also stated something to the effect of " If I see a person with a gun drawn on another in a parking lot I will immediately draw on him and ask one question...are you a CHL"? "If i do not get the right answer...BOOM". Scary and alarming again. What if the guy with the gun IS an actual police officer? That afternoon I called my CHL instructor to make sure that I was correct on these issues and not mistaken...I was correct on all 3 issues. I furthermore read the entire statute booklet again to ensure that I did have a working knowledge of the law.

The next morning my son asked me on the way in not to bring it up again as he just wanted to get in and get out. I agreed. The Instructor however came up to me, and always nice by the way, handed me a code book and asked me to start reading. He had it turned to a page that referenced general CHL laws...nothing to do whatsoever with being obligated to enforce criminal code of course. I flipped to the section on acting on the part of a third party and pointed out the key phrase "justified" to act under certain stringent conditions...not obligated. Then he presented the instructors test with which the first question being something along the lines of: "What is a CHL's primary consideration when using deadly force"? The answer choices were to: a. kill. b. maim. c. stop. d. harass or something along those lines with the correct answer being to stop of course. I pointed out that the reason one better have for using deadly force is to stop an aggressor from doing one of the criminal acts outlined in the code, but not to play the role of law enforcement.

The instructor made the leap of logic from this question to inferring that I am now Batman. I do not think I was able to convince him of anything from what he "knows"... That night I even found information on a police forum where the discussion was whether they should get involved in a active crime activity while not in uniform. Seems that many would do what I was taught, and try to be a good witness. Of course there are many what ifs and not always would that be an option.

My CHL guy did have a good point however. He said that when you sign for that license, you the holder are agreeing that YOU understand the code and even if you are taught some bad info, that will not get you very far in a court situation under the law. With that said, he also said the instructor has also agreed to teach the correct information as well. I just thought it was alarming that an instructor woulf basically say 3 things about CHL and all 3 things said were incorrect. That attitude of his will also land you in a cell too, I think.

Side note: While discussing this topic with a fellow Church member and police officer he interrupted me and told me that a CHL ALWAYS had to present the CHL to him whenever asked for ID. I told him nicely that I believe that had changed since he went thru the academy....once again even he was operating on wrong info.

Thoughts?

I'd chalk it up to misinformation or timing on information. How many people really read the updated code regularly that hold CHLs? It's a lot of work, so they will tell what they know as it was presented to them at some point. Those things could have been true at some point but obviously aren't now.

What would be really nice is some way to present to CHL holders each time laws change. Or is there a website for this with a running history that doesn't require reading through the entire code of laws all the time? Although it isn't necessarily hard to get updated info, I can see why people have outdated info and use it as fact.

IMO the best response in those situations is to point out the time differences since each person has been through a class, and the changing nature of law. Go ahead and ask when they were in their class, and you can tell yours. Whoever is most recent is likely to have better info, but should be a learning opportunity for both people.

Anyway, my instructor, as good as he was, had a few things wrong, but nothing too bad. Mostly he got things done in a professional way, prepared us for the written exam, and signed all the documents. I'm not sure most people would care about much more than that.

For #1 he's kinda sorta right. State law still requires that you present your CHL upon demand for ID while carrying, however there is no longer a punishment for failing to do so. So essentially you can neglect to show your CHL when you produce your ID without any kind of legal punishment, however you will be dealing with an annoyed peace office who will still determine how he treats you during the encounter.

Regarding #2 he's obviously confused Federal Law with the Texas Motorist Protection Act.

Regarding #3 I think he needs more (read better) training.

I'm assuming that you know the instructor's name that was giving out bad info.

DPS Maintains a list of instructors somewhere, Check and see if he is, indeed, a real CHL instructor first. Anyone can claim they are... he sure sounds like he isn't.

If he is, indeed a CHL instructor as he says, he is obviously giving out bad info in his classes as well.
I'd call/email/write DPS and inform them of this instructor's incompetence, and hopefully they'll send someone to one of his classes, and he'll get 'reeducated' properly.

I hope the rest of the information he passed on was more accurate than the CHL info. If he was wrong on everything related to CHL, the rest of his iinstruction is suspect.

You should also be aware that ALL current CHL instructors must take the instructor's course in Austin every other year, to get updated on the current laws (after the legislature meets). It's not like the licensee, that only gets updated every 5 years.

dicion wrote:I'm assuming that you know the instructor's name that was giving out bad info.

DPS Maintains a list of instructors somewhere, Check and see if he is, indeed, a real CHL instructor first. Anyone can claim they are... he sure sounds like he isn't.

If he is, indeed a CHL instructor as he says, he is obviously giving out bad info in his classes as well.
I'd call/email/write DPS and inform them of this instructor's incompetence, and hopefully they'll send someone to one of his classes, and he'll get 'reeducated' properly.

IMO, this would be the best course of action. If the guy IS actually an instructor...he is in desperate need of "re-education".


Flint.

Crosswind81 wrote:I thought I would relay what I thought was a fairly disappointing experience that happened while attending a hunting safety course with my teenaged son recently here in Texas. The 2 day course was being tought by a state certified firearms safety instructor who was as he let us know, also a certified concealed carry instructor.
Thoughts?

Forget about the CHL instruction and make sure that you and your son read and understand the hunting regulations. If he was so wrong about CHL, I imagine that you also got some other information that was not correct.

To answer your first question, you should always correct an instructor. How you do it is more important. Use a little tact and try not to embarass the instructor. You may want to talk to him/her in private during a break. Everyone makes mistakes. I have caught a couple errors from excellent instructors. They really knew the information, but misspoke. I have never had an instructor get defensive or angry for pointing out an error. Remember it goes both ways - I have also had my errors pointed out by instructors.

flintknapper wrote:

dicion wrote:I'm assuming that you know the instructor's name that was giving out bad info.

DPS Maintains a list of instructors somewhere, Check and see if he is, indeed, a real CHL instructor first. Anyone can claim they are... he sure sounds like he isn't.

If he is, indeed a CHL instructor as he says, he is obviously giving out bad info in his classes as well.
I'd call/email/write DPS and inform them of this instructor's incompetence, and hopefully they'll send someone to one of his classes, and he'll get 'reeducated' properly.

IMO, this would be the best course of action. If the guy IS actually an instructor...he is in desperate need of "re-education".


Flint.

I tend to agree, only the mis-information wasn't put out at a CHL class, it was "editorializing" at a hunter safety class. The instructor was wrong, but he wasn't teaching wrong information AT A CHL CLASS, though one might assume that he does. So I'm not sure I would report him to DPS unless I had actually heard him putting out the bad information in a class.

I certainly agree that one should try and correct in private and I absolutely did not want to embarrass or even correct this man in front of anyone but for the last incorrect info he put out I would not have. I just felt it was so over the top and aggregious that I had to. I respect the fellow for providing service in the form of training and he no doubt has years of hunting experience which can provide insight to young hunters and old ones too. I was reticent to correct him at all as I was not raised that way nor would I have done it in front of anyone except for that I felt his cavalier attitude towards CHL and the whole "stop crime" thing was i think dangerous to the young minds in the class...and even some of the "mature" ones too.

I just want to be clear that I was as careful and respectful as I could be given the fact that it was his class and he is much older than me as well. He was and is a good man i believe just poor memory or training I suppose.

Just a thought:
Perhaps he read laws from other States REQUIRING people to assist officers .... BUT
The man is cutting his own potential income with that misinformation,
If I were taking that class, I'd have been more likely to pay him for the CHL class TOO, IF he said the purpose was to defend my life and that of my family ... I don't want to be OBLIGATED to have my police scanner on all the time, and constantly looking at the clouds for the Batman signal light; running around stopping crime.

I'm going to assume he means "as a deterrent" though; and I'd assume he just meant "the penalty for not showing the CHL was removed, but I'd have certainly talked with him after class or during breaks about the statements.

Crosswind81 wrote:I just want to be clear that I was as careful and respectful as I could be given the fact that it was his class and he is much older than me as well. He was and is a good man i believe just poor memory or training I suppose.

IMO, your response was entirely appropriate. I was just "editorializing."

I personally would have considered this situation one serious enough to draw my weapon on him and warn him to stop.


Kudos to you for biting your tongue in front of the group. I struggle with that all the time. You handled it well.

I'm guessing he's not an actual CHL instructor. I'm betting he wants everyone in his hunting course to respect him more, so he claims the credential just to add to his 'authority'. He definitely has the mall ninja attitude which is extremely uncommon among CHL's and especially instructors! It's possible that he is one, but I'd be willing to bet $50 right now, just based on this information, that he's not.

G192627 wrote:I personally would have considered this situation one serious enough to draw my weapon on him and warn him to stop.

I hope you're not suggesting firing a warning shot!

G.A. Heath wrote:For #1 he's kinda sorta right. State law still requires that you present your CHL upon demand for ID while carrying, however there is no longer a punishment for failing to do so. So essentially you can neglect to show your CHL when you produce your ID without any kind of legal punishment, however you will be dealing with an annoyed peace office who will still determine how he treats you during the encounter.

Regarding #2 he's obviously confused Federal Law with the Texas Motorist Protection Act.

Regarding #3 I think he needs more (read better) training.

I agree.

As to how to correct him, I must say that I often come across this type of "editorializing" in all types of classes (actually, I do it too, and am only occasionally wrong ).
If I'm a student, I typically say in this kind of situation (when we're discussing information that is not actually part of that particular class), "Forgive me, but that's not the way I was taught in my CHL classes." I don't go any further. That statement clearly indicates to the group that there is further discussion/opinion to be had on that point, but lets the instructor get on with the class for which he/she is being paid. Plenty of time for argument later, after everyone has gotten their money's worth.