Wanted: info on police stops w/ CHL

[mshaw]

On a USENET newsgroup, in a discussion about the phenomenon of
policemen not staying current with changes in the law, I brought
up the following problem:

- TX CHL holder, not currently carrying, is pulled over
for speeding or some similar infraction

- Because s/he's not carrying, the driver does not offer
the CHL when the cop asks for license and proof of
insurance

- Cop's computer comes back with info that the driver is
a CHL holder

- Cop reacts in some negative way (screaming at the
driver, hauling him/her out of the car for a pat-down,
issuing a ticket for the now-nonexistent crime of not
volunteering the license, etc.)

I have heard of at least one such incident, as described to the
class during my last renewal session. And I've been asked for a
cite.

Does anyone have a pointer to a news story or the like describing
such an incident?

Thanks in advance....

[flintknapper]

I have not heard of anything remotely like that happening to anyone.

I have heard of a few incidents where the driver was asked why they felt they needed to "carry", and a few that involved a condescending attitude from the officer.

My (2) experiences in 10 years of carry... have both been quite positive.

[Liberty]

On a USENET newsgroup, in a discussion about the phenomenon of
policemen not staying current with changes in the law, I brought
up the following problem:

- TX CHL holder, not currently carrying, is pulled over
for speeding or some similar infraction

- Because s/he's not carrying, the driver does not offer
the CHL when the cop asks for license and proof of
insurance

- Cop's computer comes back with info that the driver is
a CHL holder

- Cop reacts in some negative way (screaming at the
driver, hauling him/her out of the car for a pat-down,
issuing a ticket for the now-nonexistent crime of not
volunteering the license, etc.)

I have heard of at least one such incident, as described to the
class during my last renewal session. And I've been asked for a
cite.

Does anyone have a pointer to a news story or the like describing
such an incident?

Thanks in advance....

I bekieve its pretty unlikely that this would happen today. CHLers are morethan 2% of the population, Finding a CHL when pulling one over is not such a rare thing. Its been 11 years now and most LEOs understand what a CHL is by now.

[longtooth]

mshaw, welcome aboard. I was stopped the 1st of the summer for speeding. That I do not do but was. Last ticket was October of 1985. Got one in July though. No warning. Offered CHL w/ DL & ins. Declaired myself armed. He asked where it was & for me to keep my hands where he could see them. Wrote my ticket & let me go. I have not heard of any such as you describe. Mine was professional. In Texas I don't think you will find many.

[Houston1944]

I have had a few encounters with LEO for various reasons in Texas during the 10 years I have had a CHL and it was really a non-event to them.

My question is why would someone not want to tell the officer they have a CHL even if you are not carrying. I don't think this is a good issue to draw a line in the sand decide that since the law does not require it I am not going to do it. Having contact with LEO in my opinion is not a court of law, it is more of a common sense situation.

[TxFire]

My question is why would someone not want to tell the officer they have a CHL even if you are not carrying. I don't think this is a good issue to draw a line in the sand decide that since the law does not require it I am not going to do it. Having contact with LEO in my opinion is not a court of law, it is more of a common sense situation.

If I do not have a firearm with me then my having or not having a CHL is a non-issue. I plan to do as is expected per the law. They expect a person carrying to present the CHL. They SHOULD NOT expect a person NOT carrying to present one. Therefor I will try to do what they should expect from a reasonable person and not complicate any matters. That is just my plan, IF I ever get stopped. But 99.9% of the time it is in my truck anyway.

[txinvestigator]

This is not the situation you described, but it is close and shows how some officers do not keep up;

This incident with one of Dallas finest while on a surveillance last year. I was conducting a surveillance as a PI.

I was completely "darked out" with limo tint and Wal-Mart cling on tint, as well as the sunvisor in the windshield. I know that it is impossible to see inside my vehicle when in that configuration. It had been several hours, and I started the car briefly to allow the battery to charge and cool myself a bit. While doing so a neighbor walking his dog seemed to notice the car running (I drive a mini van that is very quiet and you have to be close to hear it run.). He was very close and began to try to see in. He looked concerned and I saw him write down my LP.

I was parked far enough away from my Subject that I was not really worried about them noticing me.

Sure enough about 1/2 hour later DPD arrived. They could not see in either, but in an attempt to expedite his departure, I opened the driver's door and made sure my interior light came on. I keep all of my PI and other like ID in an ID case, and my DL and CHL in my wallet.

I already had my ID case out, and I had my hands visible to the officer. As a former cop, I understand and appreciate the fact that the officer has a job to do, and he needs to accurately verify and document when he contacts a person alleging to be a PI. The officer asked me, "whats going on?" or words to that general effect.

I handed him my open ID case and told him I was a PI and working a case. His next question was "are you armed" I replied yes and provided him with my CHL. He asked the usual questions, wrote down some info, and gave me my ID's back and thanked me. He and his back up then stood at the back of my vehicle for a minute.

The contact officer then approached my door again, so I opened it. He then warned that the next time they contacted me, I had better hand over my CHL immediately or they would "take me in". He then chastised me for having to ask for my CHL rather than me provide it with my other ID, and how they don't "play games with guns on the street". He went on and on about losing my license, blah, blah. Not wanting to get in a spitting match I could not win, I thanked him for his "break" and promised to comply. He and his partner then left.

As a CHL INSTRUCTOR, I am well aware of the law. If a Peace Officer or Magistrate demands your ID, and you are carrying a handgun under your CHL, then you must produce the CHL along with your State DL or ID card.

Texas Government Code


§411.205. Displaying license; penalty.

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the
license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands
that the license holder display identification, the license holder
shall display both the license holder's driver's license or
identification certificate issued by the department and the license
holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display
the license and identification as required by this subsection is
subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by Section
411.187.


This officer NEVER asked for ID. I was not in violation of the law, and was not legally arrestable. If he had decided to arrest me, I would have won in court; however, I do not have the time, money or desire to go to jail to prove my point.

So be advised, LEO's may or may not know the specifics of the laws that affect us. We should take every precaution. I intend to place my CHL in my ID case from now on when on a surveillance, and I will always produce it, even if not asked for ID.

[stevie_d_64]

I've come to a conclusion, that it is just amazing to me, that I have never actually heard from a CHL'er or any Law Enforcement Officer I know of anything (dangerous) actually happen during an official business encounter here in Texas...

I agree that both communities have gotten used to the idea that they know of the others existance, and that the growing pains are pretty much gone after ten years of this thing going on...

(Note: my sarcasm is not meant to insult or disrespect anyone in either group, it is only an observation)

For the life of me I just don't know how other states deal with this whole "notify" or not requirement in thier laws...Some states I hear actually don't require notification!

If I had a wish, I would wish that the notification requirement would go away in Texas law...But that the credentials still come up on the "check" that LEO's do everytime they conduct official business with the public...

At which time, I am sure it STILL will not be an issue, in the business being conducted at that time...

I can imagine a water-cooler conversation going like:

[Billy-Bob] "Do you remember when we had to notify Law Enforcement that we had a CHL, whether we were carrying or not?"

[Rufus] Yeah, that did create some exciting moments didn't it!"

[Billy-Bob] Yeah, you said it! Hey Steve! ("WHAT!"), do you remember that stuff?"

[Steve "the wiseman"] Yeah, that requirement (in the law) sure did create this un-necessary mistrust and uncomfortable interactions between the citizens and Law Enforcement, it wasn't an everyday thing, and real incidences were not really too bad, "outcome wise", until we got that whole issue resolved in the 2007 session..."

[Billy-Bob] Yeah, you got that right Steve!

[Rufus] Yeah, Steve you da man!

(Steve gets back to work, because the boss is roaming)

[txinvestigator]

Billy Bob is mistaken, Steve.

[kw5kw]

Steve,
That sounds a lot like the new Lexus commercials--the one that parks its self.

Yeah, I remember washboards...
Yeah, there used to be only radio...
Yeah, you had to hold the rabbit ears to get the picture...
Yeah, you used to have to parallel park...

[txinvestigator]

Steve,
That sounds a lot like the new Lexus commercials--the one that parks its self.

Yeah, I remember washboards...
Yeah, there used to be only radio...
Yeah, you had to hold the rabbit ears to get the picture...
Yeah, you used to have to parallel park...

I just saw that commercial yesterday. Is that for real?

[JKDubb]

Steve,
That sounds a lot like the new Lexus commercials--the one that parks its self.

Yeah, I remember washboards...
Yeah, there used to be only radio...
Yeah, you had to hold the rabbit ears to get the picture...
Yeah, you used to have to parallel park...

I just saw that commercial yesterday. Is that for real?

Yep it is I read al about it in last months car and driver, it is actually really cool.

I myself would not purchase this car, i am upset that when my tires begin to spin my electronic throttle decides that it needs to disengage to slow the engine RPM's while at the same time my antilock brakes feel the need to stop the spinning of my tires.

What happenned to the good ol' days of foot to the floor, rubber on the ground and smoke in the air!

A few drivers lose control and in steps the government/automakers to give us all safer cars. You can even buy vehicles that will slow you down when the cruise control is engaged to keep you from rear ending the driver in front of you! What are you doing that you cannot move your foot off of the floor and engage the brake????

Rant over...

[cyphur]

While a good theory in concept, I think all the self-parking car is doing in practice is making Americans lazier.




On the original topic, I will present my ID whenever I am confronted by a LEO whether I am armed or not. I have had to pull gate guard(when I was in the military, when the soldiers were still doing it) and have had to pull folks over for inspection. I've found weapons in a car before, and I understand the apprehension that is created when you have no idea what could be there. I've even had run in's with Federal investigators(DIA - they don't like to let go of their ID - but I won that battle), and even GG vs GG there is apprehension.

Due to all of that - I will always volunteer as much information as I am legally required to, as well as whatever information I feel may help the LEO feel secure and confident that the situation will progress in a positive manner - so long as it doesn't infringe upon my rights.

And while most of you feel that because you carry a CHL - you are a bona fide good guy - if I was a LEO I would be on high alert 24/7. A CHL doesn't change anything other than you are allowed to be armed. Yes, it does also make clear that you do not have a history of violent convictions, and that you are generally a law abiding citizen, it doesn't change the fact that I don't know you from a hole in the ground, and I am still on high alert. Cordial, yes, but still guarded. This may offend some of you, but in these times you can no longer take anything for granted when it comes to your own personal security or that of your charges.

[Glockamolie]

What are you doing that you cannot move your foot off of the floor and engage the brake????

Rant over...

Looking at your navigation screen, your DVD player, your ipod, or your cell phone.

As for the self-parker, that's a $4k option. A few car reviews have seen it for what it is: Gadgetry gone overboard.

[stevie_d_64]

Billy Bob is mistaken, Steve.

Well my bud Billy Bob is a kind-hearted, well-intentioned citizen...Who married WAY outside his station a few years ago...

I think for the most part he had the right idea...Doesn't like to receive or dole out surprises...

But I do know what you mean...