Private University Parking Lot?

[Lonest4r]

Here are a couple of excerpts from the student code of conduct at my university. I would like to engage in a discussion in regards to the legality of leaving my weapon locked in the car parked in a university owned parking lot.
"1.01(a) the terms “campus” and “campus grounds” refer to any buildings or grounds owned, leased, operated, controlled, or supervised by the University"

"2.08(c) No searches of residence hall rooms, fraternity and sorority housing, University apartments (hereinafter referred to as student living areas, properties whose tenants are students) and/or private property will be conducted unless such an order is issued upon reasonable cause through the Dean of Student Life and Executive Director of Residence Life and Student Housing. When such an order is issued, a search of student living areas on University owned property may be conducted at any time by the residence hall staff, University officials and/or the SMU Police Department, and their entrance shall not be denied. Nothing herein shall be construed to deny the University the right at any reasonable time to conduct inspections of student living areas on University owned property to determine compliance with health and safety regulations..."

"3.30 WEAPONS 3.30(a) Students are prohibited from the use and possession of dangerous weapons or facsimiles of dangerous weapons on University property. Concealed handguns and/or other weapons covered under the Texas firearms statute which took effect on January 1, 1996, are not permitted on campus. Self-defense sprays legally sold over the counter for personal defense are permitted on campus. 3.30(b) Student-owned sporting firearms or other weapons (including all BB and pellet guns) must be registered and stored through arrangements with the SMU Police Department. 3.30(c) Weapons or reasonable facsimiles of weapons are not to be used in any game or play situations."

Any thoughts?

[gdanaher]

SMU is private property, and they say pretty clearly here that weapons are precluded from the property, so leaving it in your car would be an option only if it was parked on a public street, and that is a rare commodity in your neighborhood.

[hirundo82]

SMU is private property, and they say pretty clearly here that weapons are precluded from the property, so leaving it in your car would be an option only if it was parked on a public street, and that is a rare commodity in your neighborhood.

The OP asked about the legality of leaving a firearm locked in his car on campus. To provide effective trespass notice in writing, the language used must conform to the specifications of PC §30.06, which the code of conduct clearly does not. Therefore he can legally leave it in his vehicle.

On the other hand, there is nothing to stop the school from expelling him if they found out about it.

[Tamie]

The OP asked about the legality of leaving a firearm locked in his car on campus. To provide effective trespass notice in writing, the language used must conform to the specifications of PC §30.06, which the code of conduct clearly does not. Therefore he can legally leave it in his vehicle.

On the other hand, there is nothing to stop the school from expelling him if they found out about it.

Well said.

[speedsix]

...I know that dogs can detect drugs...but I don't have specific knowledge that dogs can alert on gun oil or powder within a shell...I quit police work loooooooong before even drug dogs...if the gun were to be concealed in a locked vehicle...do they really have dogs that can sniff it out??????? seems if that were so, any car driven by one who hunted or shot often would alert them...

[C-dub]

...I know that dogs can detect drugs...but I don't have specific knowledge that dogs can alert on gun oil or powder within a shell...I quit police work loooooooong before even drug dogs...if the gun were to be concealed in a locked vehicle...do they really have dogs that can sniff it out??????? seems if that were so, any car driven by one who hunted or shot often would alert them...

A dog can easily detect those things in a car if that is what it is trained for. I am not a LEO nor have I ever been one, so I have no idea if any departments have any dogs with this type of training. It would be no more difficult than training one for drug detection, cadavers, or anything else. There are bound to be some somewhere, but it doesn't seem likely at a college PD. It seems more likely at a border crossing or major airport.

[speedsix]

...I read once that a dog's nose can detect one drop of urine in a bucket of water...but components inside a brass case...mercy....

[srothstein]

I am not a LEO nor have I ever been one, so I have no idea if any departments have any dogs with this type of training. It would be no more difficult than training one for drug detection, cadavers, or anything else. There are bound to be some somewhere, but it doesn't seem likely at a college PD.

I have not seen any police departments offering this service to schools. I have seen police departments in specialized areas (airports mostly) that have dogs trained to detect explosives. I don't know if they can also detect gunpowder or just other explosives, but it is certainly possible. I agree that a dog can be trained to detect almost anything so this is possible.

I have seen this offered by security companies with contracts to schools. The problem, IMO, is that the dog is trained to detect too many substances. The one security company I am aware of in the San Antonio area that does this has dogs trained to detect drugs, cigarettes, and guns. When I was on patrol I had a problem with a school doing this because it ruins the probable cause. Court shave ruled that the PC must be for a specific thing, just like a warrant must state exactly what is being searched for. If a dog trained as I just said alerts on a car, how do I know if it is alerting on a car for cigarettes (which could be legal if the owner/driver of the car is over 18) of for a gun of for narcotics? I don't see a case like that standing up in court for anything criminal. I am not sure it would even stand up in court for a wrongful termination lawsuit, though I cannot say it won't stand up there. I am convinced that the worst that could happen to a person would be expulsion or firing.

[LAYGO]

SMU is private property, and they say pretty clearly here that weapons are precluded from the property, so leaving it in your car would be an option only if it was parked on a public street, and that is a rare commodity in your neighborhood.

The OP asked about the legality of leaving a firearm locked in his car on campus. To provide effective trespass notice in writing, the language used must conform to the specifications of PC §30.06, which the code of conduct clearly does not. Therefore he can legally leave it in his vehicle.

On the other hand, there is nothing to stop the school from expelling him if they found out about it.

Would the 30.06 sign apply to parking lots/garages? Until a few weeks ago, there was a 30.06 sign here at work that was most likely to spec (I took pictures of it next to a credit card to get scale, but I can't find the pic. The overall sign was bout 5' tall too) & I was under the impression that the TPC clearly stated it did not apply to parking lots/garages. The sign was about 200yds away from our building & 250yds away from our parking garage.

In relation to the OP's question, what would take precedent? State law or private "regulations/code of conduct"? Or is it simply "not illegal", but they could fire/expel you?

[MoJo]

It's against the law - - - Pertinent section of PC.
emphasis mine.


PC $46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses
or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon
listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution

Now, if you are a CHL maybe you are exempt from leaving your gun in your car in the parking lot. But you aren't exempt from the schools rules if you are a student. Work for campus carry.

[hirundo82]

Would the 30.06 sign apply to parking lots/garages? Until a few weeks ago, there was a 30.06 sign here at work that was most likely to spec (I took pictures of it next to a credit card to get scale, but I can't find the pic. The overall sign was bout 5' tall too) & I was under the impression that the TPC clearly stated it did not apply to parking lots/garages. The sign was about 200yds away from our building & 250yds away from our parking garage.

§30.06 refers to "property," not "premises" as in §46.03 and §46.035; therefore the consensus is that they are valid to prohibit carry in parking lots, garages, etc.

In relation to the OP's question, what would take precedent? State law or private "regulations/code of conduct"? Or is it simply "not illegal", but they could fire/expel you?

Underlined part is correct. If you are not given effective trespass notice under §30.06 there is nothing you could be charged with, but the rules for if you could be fired or expelled are much more lenient.

It's against the law - - - Pertinent section of PC.
emphasis mine.


PC $46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses
or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon
listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution

Now, if you are a CHL maybe you are exempt from leaving your gun in your car in the parking lot. But you aren't exempt from the schools rules if you are a student. Work for campus carry.

All that section of §46.03 prohibits is carry in a building (ETA: or carry on property where an official school event is being conducted at that time, probably limited to property that the school controls). You need to read further in §46 to get the full picture:

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

(c) In this section:
(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035.

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(f) In this section:
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

[LAYGO]

Would the 30.06 sign apply to parking lots/garages? Until a few weeks ago, there was a 30.06 sign here at work that was most likely to spec (I took pictures of it next to a credit card to get scale, but I can't find the pic. The overall sign was bout 5' tall too) & I was under the impression that the TPC clearly stated it did not apply to parking lots/garages. The sign was about 200yds away from our building & 250yds away from our parking garage.

§30.06 refers to "property," not "premises" as in §46.03 and §46.035; therefore the consensus is that they are valid to prohibit carry in parking lots, garages, etc.

That's shocking. How does that apply to the Castle Doctrine?

[RPB]

Castle doctrine?

I think you mou mean MPA. Motorist Protection act?

30.06 only applies to concealed handgun licensees. No license is required to carry in your car under the MPA.
30.06 signs provide effective notice only that licensees can't carry. Them mention nothing about the MPA unlicensed people having a gun in the car.

I imagine one may still control their own privately owned garages under 30.05 Criminal Tresspass, if they gave notice, to the MPA carrier and forbid entry, but not by using a 30.06 sign, because that addresses CHL carriers, not MPA carriers, and they'd have to know one was there inside the car, and prove you intended to trespass under 30.05 would be my guess. The "offender" having a gun while trespassing under 30.05, would have to have notice, as shown below. (see the section 30.05 at the link, "(2) "Notice" means:" re: purple paint, signs etc)

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:

(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

30.05 CRIMINAL TRESPASS isn't Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, which pertaining to Licensees.
Non-licensees carrying under the MPA who read 30.06 signs are just reading mail which is not addressed to them, and may,(or may not) be deemed to fail to provide notice under 30.05. (See "Notice means: in 30.05)
Both are here http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPA is part of Texas Penal code Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
found here : http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, if a CHL carries in his car under the MPA ... there are lots of threads here discussing that, and I won't attempt to explain what confuses me in the many situations I've read, but I've seen all sorts of opinions, and one may be correct.
I mean if it's posted 30.06, you may be in violation carrying in your car with your CHL on the "property"?, but if carrying under the MPA and leave the CHL license at home and gun in the car, he/you may not have received 30.05 notice not to leave one in the car if there's only a 30.06 sign and no proper 30.05 notice? ... < I dunno shoulder shrugging smiley face >
I dunno. Maybe just carry a concealed shotgun in the car? Situations vary, and I, not having run across any situations, haven't dwelled/studied that enough to answer.
IANAL and my opinions are worth what you paid for them

[LAYGO]

Castle doctrine?

I think you mou mean MPA. Motorist Protection act?

30.06 only applies to concealed handgun licensees. No license is required to carry in your car under the MPA.
30.06 signs provide effective notice only that licensees can't carry. Them mention nothing about the MPA unlicensed people having a gun in the car.

I imagine one may still control their own privately owned garages under 30.05 Criminal Tresspass, if they gave notice, to the MPA carrier and forbid entry, but not by using a 30.06 sign, because that addresses CHL carriers, not MPA carriers, and they'd have to know one was there inside the car, and prove you intended to trespass under 30.05 would be my guess. The "offender" having a gun while trespassing under 30.05, would have to have notice, as shown below. (see the section 30.05 at the link, "(2) "Notice" means:" re: purple paint, signs etc)

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:

(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

30.05 CRIMINAL TRESPASS isn't Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, which pertaining to Licensees.
Non-licensees carrying under the MPA who read 30.06 signs are just reading mail which is not addressed to them, and may,(or may not) be deemed to fail to provide notice under 30.05. (See "Notice means: in 30.05)
Both are here http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPA is part of Texas Penal code Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
found here : http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, if a CHL carries in his car under the MPA ... there are lots of threads here discussing that, and I won't attempt to explain what confuses me in the many situations I've read, but I've seen all sorts of opinions, and one may be correct.
I mean if it's posted 30.06, you may be in violation carrying in your car with your CHL on the "property"?, but if carrying under the MPA and leave the CHL license at home and gun in the car, he/you may not have received 30.05 notice not to leave one in the car if there's only a 30.06 sign and no proper 30.05 notice? ... < I dunno shoulder shrugging smiley face >
I dunno. Maybe just carry a concealed shotgun in the car? Situations vary, and I, not having run across any situations, haven't dwelled/studied that enough to answer.
IANAL and my opinions are worth what you paid for them

AHHH! I could never figure out what the heck MPA meant! Thanks.

[juggernaut]

Another thing to remember is MPA only defines a set of circumstances where you're not guilty of UCW. It doesn't prevent a business or private residence from posting trespass notice signs (30.05 and/or 30.06) at the edge of their property, where the notice includes buildings and grounds and parking areas. It doesn't prevent a business or individual from giving oral notice. It doesn't prevent a businesses from having HR policies and firing an employee who brings a gun on company property, even if the employee isn't breaking any laws.