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I ran across this and it seemed decent enough to share. Some of the things he recommends I have thought about before.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... -violence/

• Moderator's note: The linked essay contains language that would be unsuitable on Texas CHL Forum. Please consider that in your choice to view the essay.
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mrvmax wrote:I ran across this and it seemed decent enough to share. Some of the things he recommends I have thought about before.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... -violence/

A very good article. Nothing surprising, but nicely written. Principle #2 though ("Do not defend your property") is subjective. Generally speaking, you're going to spend a lot of money in legal fees explaining why you shot a kid that was stealing a $300 GPS out of your truck.

I've read a lot of crummy articles on the subject, but this one was thoughtful and on point. Thanks. I'll re-post elsewhere.

To each his own oppininon & evidently this is his but I have to take GREAT issue w/ this one.

if someone sticks a gun in your face and demands your wallet, you should hand it over without hesitation—and run.

If a gun is in my face we are not talking about my wallet. I am 61, have a store bought knee, been split wide open to get cancer out (5.5 yr ago & no sign today PTL) aurthritis very evident. Run does not happen any more & if it was attempted no doubt in my mind FALL would happen in about 10ft.

It is stupid statements like this that get people shot then the arresting officer asks, "why did you shoot them, they complied & did everything you said."
Some of the answers:
No witnesses, extra time for getaway, made me mad when he threw it, it was an accident-I did not mean to-it just went off. (Badguys always have the finger on the T.)

Obviously my oppinion just above. For sure I will not use deadly force to protect my 17yr old hand push lawn mower (the example I use in class) Since my wallet does not have any credit cards & very seldom over $20-30, The real truth is my MAXpedition wallet is almost always worth more than its contents.

To say "Never defend your property" is as foolish as the one who says "its mine & aint nobody steelin my stuff. Dont care what it is."
Somewhere there is a line that says "dont tread on me" & everyone must draw their own.
LT

Bottom line.. things can always be replaced for the most part but not your loved ones and self. Don't take unnecessary risks! Call 911 and wait for help if possible. That's what the police are there for!

longtooth wrote:To each his own oppininon & evidently this is his but I have to take GREAT issue w/ this one.

if someone sticks a gun in your face and demands your wallet, you should hand it over without hesitation—and run.

If a gun is in my face we are not talking about my wallet. I am 61, have a store bought knee, been split wide open to get cancer out (5.5 yr ago & no sign today PTL) aurthritis very evident. Run does not happen any more & if it was attempted no doubt in my mind FALL would happen in about 10ft.

It is stupid statements like this that get people shot then the arresting officer asks, "why did you shoot them, they complied & did everything you said."
Some of the answers:
No witnesses, extra time for getaway, made me mad when he threw it, it was an accident-I did not mean to-it just went off. (Badguys always have the finger on the T.)

Obviously my oppinion just above. For sure I will not use deadly force to protect my 17yr old hand push lawn mower (the example I use in class) Since my wallet does not have any credit cards & very seldom over $20-30, The real truth is my MAXpedition wallet is almost always worth more than its contents.

To say "Never defend your property" is as foolish as the one who says "its mine & aint nobody steelin my stuff. Dont care what it is."
Somewhere there is a line that says "dont tread on me" & everyone must draw their own.
LT

Some folks on here will note that I have said repeatedly that ME shooting someone over property isn't something I would do. However, it does depend on the property, I would imagine. MOST property can be replaced for less money than the cost of lawyers, fees, etc. to get your name cleared after being forced to shoot some bad-guy in the commission of a crime against you. I do believe as you do, though, that there are MANY bad-guys out there that will shoot you as soon as look at you if you are their chosen target, for many of the reasons you pointed out. And if nothing else, I think about Flight 93 vs. the other doomed flights on 9/11. Americans were told again and again to comply with terrorists' demands; sit tight, don't make waves, it'll all be okay. But it wasn't...ALL of those planes went down, all those people in them perished...but thanks to Todd Beamer and the rest of the "Let's roll" team, Flight 93 didn't hit a populated area. I'm tearing up right now thinking about those brave folks and how afraid they must have been, BUT THEY DID WHAT THEY HAD TO DO. If you fight back, you may lose...if you give in, you WILL lose. Once again, my CHL and weapon are for the DEFENSE of myself, family, and friends, and MAYBE my property...Just my 2 cents worth.

I can't add anything to what's already been said.

Generally speaking, you're going to spend a lot of money in legal fees explaining why you shot a kid that was stealing a $300 GPS out of your truck.

100%. I got the lowest deductible under the vandalism portion of my car insurance after seeing so many friends get their cars broken into and the insurance cover nothing! Most are at least $500 and don't even cover the window. The insurance companies know this and know that most will want the highest deductible and they all know the average cost of a window. I think it cost me 4 bucks more a month and my deductible is $200. This will cover a window easily. Usually my newest car is parked in the garage and I never leave anything of value in the car but it's worth it if your car ever gets broken into IMO.

EDIT: The most expensive single thing in my house is my fiancées engagement ring and while it's not worth my life it would be a cold day in you know what before she gave it up!

longtooth wrote: To say "Never defend your property" is as foolish as the one who says "its mine & aint nobody steelin my stuff. Dont care what it is."
Somewhere there is a line that says "dont tread on me" & everyone must draw their own.
LT

Such wise words from such a humble man.
Merry Christmas LT

If he asks politely, we can decide if we want to say yes or no.

If he threatens me, it doesn't matter what he wants. I will end the threat.

If he threatens you, you can do what you want. But your choice is your responsibility. That's one of the reasons I don't get involved in 3rd party violence any more. Except to call 911.

Good discussion of a difficult topic.

My suggestion is that you think through where your trigger lines are in the cold light of day long before an incident happens, and be as sure as you can be that your decisions reflect at least as much legal precedent as emotion.

Trying to work all that out while you've got a lot more going on and only seconds to decide has gotten a lot of folks into places they didn't want to be.

I thought it was a nice written article. While I agree with principals 1 & 2, number three I dunno. As has been stated somewhere there is a line in the sand.

I can't agree with anything the author is saying beyond do not let the per control you, the way he writes it seems that he is avocating to abbrogate your right to self protection. sorry the guy is actually one of those that have been advocating the do not fight but submit to the demands of the attacker

JP171 wrote:I can't agree with anything the author is saying beyond do not let the per control you, the way he writes it seems that he is avocating to abbrogate your right to self protection. sorry the guy is actually one of those that have been advocating the do not fight but submit to the demands of the attacker

I checked his website a little more. Seems he's a devout "secular humanist". Probably thinks that if we all just stand in the cold light of science, we will all hold hands and sing "The Internationale" (look it up, if any of you don't know what that is). After looking at his website, I am much less impressed with him, MUCH LESS.

His best advice is to understand how much the situation has escalated once the BG attempts to control your movements. If he/she wants you to go into another room, lay down, go into the bank vault, go into the back room of the restaurant, etc...then it is time to unleash as much kiss-my-relatively-huge behind as you can. I think any decent lawyer would be able to show how many times that sort of demand is the prelude to executions.

As soon as I saw his self-described lifestyle as being a secular humanist, he lost a huge amount of my belief that he was going to dish out any good advice.

RJ