TexasCHLforum.com

February 26, 2013 10:19 PM
COOKE COUNTY (CBS 11 NEWS)
Reporting Arezow Doost

Cooke County EMS near Denton covers about 900 square miles and most of it is rural.

“There are potential out there for things to occur,” says Kevin Grant Cooke County Emergency Medical Services Director.
He’s talking about paramedics being put in dangerous situations when they respond to a scene where they may not know the person’s mental state.
Grant says his crews often respond to calls alone and are potentially vulnerable.

Story Here

Only one?

“We don’t necessary want to introduce a weapon on ourselves into a scene that quite frankly may be used against us or someone else at the scene,” says Matt Zavadsky with MedStar. -

Really!!! Isn't this right next to Blood will run in the streets I hate guns playbook.

I have worked as a paramedic in the rural environment similar to Cooke County for 14 years. I have been hazardous situation’s a few times although rare, having to go hands on with a patient or family member when law enforcement is 20+ minutes away. Even worse when you get into an area with poor or no radio coverage and can’t call for help. I have been shot at and stabbed once in the past 14 years of service both after calling for help and within 10 minutes of LE arrival. I would hate to ever resort to that degree of force against another person (patient or family member) but when it comes down to who gets to go home that day, I would prefer it be me.

This is a very near and dear subject for me. That I know of there is no law that prevents paramedics from carrying concealed except for department policy. Where it gets troubling is nursing homes, hospitals and other places that are legally / properly 30.06 posted. I carried concealed for years while on duty after being stabbed (CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED). My Local LE Chief knew and supported carrying while on duty and even helped check the policy and state laws. At one time he offered to all of the medics that were CHL and carried some additional hands on and weapon training through the PD. The department policy was changed as the newly appointed director was not a fan of concealed carry while on duty.

(OFF TOPIC)
He went as far as posting 30.06 signs on the station doors (improper posting and not the topic of this thread) and tried to enforce a ruling that no firearms of any type were allowed in or on the property. Funny how half of the department parked across the street off property just to prove a point.

(BACK ON TOPIC)
I agree with Mr. Zavadsky with MedStar partially. It should partially be up to the department to permit the medics to carry, but the state needs to give some guidance and assistance in reducing the liability to the department in the event that deadly force is used. It is no less dangerous in Fort Worth with LE assistance minutes away than it is Rural. I think that if the state does pass legislation on this that there needs to be some recourse on the department if a medic is injured or killed because the department denied them from protecting themselves. The other concern is introduction of a weapon into the hazardous environment that can be sued against the medic. I also agree with Mr. Zavadsky that the 10 hour CHL course is not enough training and that some advanced conflict resolution and defensive tactics from least lethal hands on to use of deadly force training should be required.

If I remember correctly Mr. Grant Cooke County Emergency Medical Services Director was appointed as the director few years ago and came from Southern California. It’s nice to know that there is still a few Californian’s with some common sense that truly cares about the safety of their staff and is willing to put their neck on the line like this.

Though the majority of my practice was as a MedStar paramedic in and around Fort Worth, I've also done quite a bit of semi-rural and rural runs in the 25 years I had the paramedic patch on my shoulder, and I can tell you that there were times that I would have given almost anything to have a firearm at my disposal. The problem of weapons-retention is one that the police have had to deal with, and they've come up with good locking holsters that resist unauthorized use enough that we don't often here of someone taking a cop's gun away from them any more.

But, in retrospect, for the rural medics who often arrive at a call before the sherrif's deputy will finally make it to the scene, I think having a weapon is probably more of a practical thing than for the urban medic.

The "problem" of PC30.06 is not limited to hospitals and nursing homes, but to the businesses and homes that paramedics are often invited into during the course of their duty day, not to mention the bars and strip joints. With that in mind, it would take putting the paramedics into the same category as police officers with respect to weapons, something I've though that should be extended to deputiziing EMS personnel in rural areas - doing that would solve a lot more problems than just having the EMS folks being able to protect themselves, but would also allow them to apprehend a person who was intent upon fleeing a scene before LE shows up (had that happen several times). But that's beyond the scope of this article.

Yep, changing the law to allow EMS agencies to decide (in conjunction with the local LE agencies) would probably be a good thing.

SC1903A3 wrote:

“We don’t necessary want to introduce a weapon on ourselves into a scene that quite frankly may be used against us or someone else at the scene,” says Matt Zavadsky with MedStar. -

Really!!! Isn't this right next to Blood will run in the streets I hate guns playbook.

Trust me, I've spoken with Matt personally and we don't see eye-to-eye on it (Though so everyone knows, Matt is the Public Information guy, not a policy maker). It currently is against agency policy to carry a handgun into the buildings (no 30.06, just a "No handguns allowed" along with an at-will employment state) A good portion of my co-workers have CHLs and if we could carry, we would in a heartbeat. In my time as a Paramedic, I've know several who refuse to step foot on an ambulance if they aren't carrying, and as such some no longer work on the truck but sit behind a desk.



The higherups that make the policies are nearly always separated from real issues in most jobs, and EMS is no different. If it was up to the employees and the ones that are in danger, it'd be passed without issue. You cannot be for CHL/ CCW and be against a Paramedic or EMT carrying if they choose to. They are not mutually exclusive. We're trusted with dozens of dangerous medications and have the ability to kill someone quite easily either willingly or negligently, but nope, we can't be trusted to protect ourselves as adults.

In the 90's when I was stationed at Hill AFB Utah there were Sheriff's that were also Paramedics.

Having worked as a current 20+ year EMT/Firefighter for a major city here in Texas, I am all for being able to carry IF, you have a CHL AND have gone through additional training so as to not be a liability. Funny as LE are issued bullet proof vests and firearms, EMS are issued bullet proof vests, and fire is issued nothing. Granted we have safety in numbers for a majority of the issues that have arisen. But there have been times when having AND truly knowing how to use the firearm in a chaotic dynamic situation would have been nice. I can especially see it if you were rural EMS and had extended response time from LE. They key I think is to have the additional training to be properly prepared and not be a liability to the public. I do see where policy makers within a city dept would not want this as all it takes is for one "bad apple" to do something stupid and the next thing you know the city and the employee are facing lawsuits. It is a tough one, but one that could work if properly addressed. Just my opinion.

texasparamedic wrote:I have worked as a paramedic in the rural environment similar to Cooke County for 14 years. I have been hazardous situation’s a few times although rare, having to go hands on with a patient or family member when law enforcement is 20+ minutes away. Even worse when you get into an area with poor or no radio coverage and can’t call for help. I have been shot at and stabbed once in the past 14 years of service both after calling for help and within 10 minutes of LE arrival. I would hate to ever resort to that degree of force against another person (patient or family member) but when it comes down to who gets to go home that day, I would prefer it be me. <SNIP>

My experience is not rural but urban. Most of the times I can make it "rain police" within MINUTES while seconds count. I have wrested guns away from half a dozen people, gone hand to hand with knife wielders, tied domestic abusers into pretzels and played toreador with a manic coke heads. All the while waiting for those long minutes waiting before the cavalry rides over the hill.

Policies and radios (except when used as clubs) do not protect medics. There was a short lived effort to issue and then get medics to wear vests but that was a dubious comfort at best and they do no good stuffed in a side compartment.