Printing and displaying in public

[sebis]

I run into something strange tonight while eating a quick dinner at Becks Prime. There was a gentlemen having dinner as well and badly printing while carrying OWB under a short t-shirt. I believe he was carrying a 1911 variant based on the shape of the gun. The bottom of the holster was showing while he was walking around and the stock was visibly printing/showing under the white shirt.

My wife noticed as well but the rest of the people seemed pretty oblivious to the side show, pun intended. In my opinion he was not making any effort on concealing the gun other then having the shirt on the outside rather then tucked-in. My only explanation is that he was some sort of Leo and didn't care but I thought even off-duty Leos are suppose to conceal in Texas.

Please tell me if I am wrong to think we was not acting properly.

--Sebis

[srothstein]

I would think he should have concealed better, but he did meet the law. The best way to show he met the law is that no one else in the crowd noticed. You and your wife have slightly more experience in recognizing this from your affiliation already with guns.

And no, there is no requirement that an LEO have his weapon concealed when off duty. Some departments may have a rule on it (SAPD used to when I was there) but others do not. The law just exempts LEO's from the unlawfully carrying sections and makes no other requirements of them. Note also that a traveler does not have to conceal under the law (unless he is in a car :) with the new presumption.)

[Liberty]

I would think he should have concealed better, but he did meet the law. The best way to show he met the law is that no one else in the crowd noticed. You and your wife have slightly more experience in recognizing this from your affiliation already with guns.

And no, there is no requirement that an LEO have his weapon concealed when off duty. Some departments may have a rule on it (SAPD used to when I was there) but others do not. The law just exempts LEO's from the unlawfully carrying sections and makes no other requirements of them. Note also that a traveler does not have to conceal under the law (unless he is in a car :) with the new presumption.)

If I'm in a car and a gun is on hip, then it is concealed There is no way any one from outside the car could see it ( at least on me in my car.) Does this mean that a nonCHL traveler can open carry into a restaurant?

[casselthief]

.....

[txinvestigator]

I would think he should have concealed better, but he did meet the law. The best way to show he met the law is that no one else in the crowd noticed. You and your wife have slightly more experience in recognizing this from your affiliation already with guns.

And no, there is no requirement that an LEO have his weapon concealed when off duty. Some departments may have a rule on it (SAPD used to when I was there) but others do not. The law just exempts LEO's from the unlawfully carrying sections and makes no other requirements of them. Note also that a traveler does not have to conceal under the law (unless he is in a car :) with the new presumption.)

If I'm in a car and a gun is on hip, then it is concealed There is no way any one from outside the car could see it ( at least on me in my car.)

If people in Trucks and large vehicle cannot observe it, then yes.

Does this mean that a nonCHL traveler can open carry into a restaurant?

One has nothing to do with the other.

I believe there have been some court rulings that once you stop to eat, you are no longer traveling; however, there is no case law regarding the issue that a lower court would be held to. I guess it could go either way, depending on the judge/jury.

[fiftycal]

Are you sure it wasn't a cell phone? Or pager? Or camera? Or some other electronic gizmo? When I wear jeans and a holster with a T shirt over it, there is a big bump. So what? Some people are just overly nervous about "printing", which is not a violation.

[yerasimos]

Some people are just overly nervous about "printing", which is not a violation.

Like the rest of you have pointed out, printing is not illegal. However, printing is a target indicator that (generally) attracts unwanted attention to the printer (or is that printee?), ranging from stares from others to getting served first in the event of a violent confrontation (ie, robbers hold up the restaurant, see a CHLer's handgun printing through his thin T-shirt, and decide to shoot him preemptively).

On one extreme, there is concealed to meet the legal minimum (like the subject of the original post) and on the opposite end there is covert, where an astute observer would be unlikely to guess the individual is CCWing. Everyone who CCWs falls somewhere along this continuum.

As others have noted, the individual at Beck's Prime was making the minimum effort to conceal his handgun and comply with the law. He lies at the minimum concealed extreme, opposite and far away from "covert".

Royal Robbins/5.11 and other tacticool clothing are great for concealing a lot of hardware, but are not very covert. (Mea culpa, I have been guilty of wearing some of this stuff off-range.) Same with the rip-open fanny packs, overt gun logos on clothing, and TSRA/NRA decals and plates on vehicles. That said, I believe people should be free to make their own decisions on how they choose to dress, and free to deal with the consequences, good or bad.

Untucked Hawaiian shirts are a good step in the covert direction, but I think there is a percentage of non-CHLers that are on to them. (Or maybe that is just my paranoia showing through . . .)

Flip flops, slim-fit tank top and shorts would be an ensemble that would lead me to doubt that such an attired individual is CCWing, but that still leaves the possibility of Thunderwear or a SmartCarry, or the derringer in the coin pocket. Such an individual lies at or near the covert extreme.

I guess the ideal for a given individual is to get as covert as possible, without compromising or minimizing the compromise with the hardware that is carried. Some seek this balance/ideal, others do not.

[Liberty]

Untucked Hawaiian shirts are a good step in the covert direction, but I think there is a percentage of non-CHLers that are on to them. (Or maybe that is just my paranoia showing through . . .)

Flip flops, slim-fit tank top and shorts would be an ensemble that would lead me to doubt that such an attired individual is CCWing, but that still leaves the possibility of Thunderwear or a SmartCarry, or the derringer in the coin pocket. Such an individual lies at or near the covert extreme.

I don't think its always so obvious. I do the Hawiian shirt thing a lot, but I wear Berks (flip flops) and straw hats... I see guys here that carry some big ole guns in hospital scrubs. I have friends that don't carry that have boatloads of stuff strung on their belts with black leather and nylon.., I think these guys are more likely to be made made as packin' than most CHLs..

[sebis]

Are you sure it wasn't a cell phone? Or pager? Or camera? Or some other electronic gizmo? When I wear jeans and a holster with a T shirt over it, there is a big bump. So what? Some people are just overly nervous about "printing", which is not a violation.

To follow-up on my previous post, there was no doubt it was a gun. I saw the bottom of the holster coming out from under his semi-transparent white t-shirt. When he sat down I could clearly see the printing of a 1911 style frame.

I was amazed nobody else noticed.

--Sebis

[Venus Pax]

Most people aren't looking. Before getting my CHL, I never noticed these things either. I now find myself checking out cops' weapons when they aren't looking.

[yerasimos]

Untucked Hawaiian shirts are a good step in the covert direction, but I think there is a percentage of non-CHLers that are on to them. (Or maybe that is just my paranoia showing through . . .)

Flip flops, slim-fit tank top and shorts would be an ensemble that would lead me to doubt that such an attired individual is CCWing, but that still leaves the possibility of Thunderwear or a SmartCarry, or the derringer in the coin pocket. Such an individual lies at or near the covert extreme.

I don't think its always so obvious. I do the Hawiian shirt thing a lot, but I wear Berks (flip flops) and straw hats... I see guys here that carry some big ole guns in hospital scrubs. I have friends that don't carry that have boatloads of stuff strung on their belts with black leather and nylon.., I think these guys are more likely to be made made as packin' than most CHLs..

FWIW, what you describe (as your attire) sounds very cleverly "balanced" with regard to weapon access and "covertness".

It may seem as though I was implying that dressing for CCW is a science, that x = y, but that was not my intent. I see it as an art form, and you have to paint with the pallette (sp?), paints and canvas you have available. Results vary widely.

For me, inability to see an individual's belt is an indicator for CCW because the belt is probably the most accessible place to carry weapons. However, I know that some unarmed people choose to wear their shirts untucked, and I have heard of people carrying guns in the waistband without a belt or a holster, not to mention plenty of people carrying guns in holsters away from the belt.

[TX Rancher]

Are you sure it wasn't a cell phone? Or pager? Or camera? Or some other electronic gizmo? When I wear jeans and a holster with a T shirt over it, there is a big bump. So what? Some people are just overly nervous about "printing", which is not a violation.

To follow-up on my previous post, there was no doubt it was a gun. I saw the bottom of the holster coming out from under his semi-transparent white t-shirt. When he sat down I could clearly see the printing of a 1911 style frame.

I was amazed nobody else noticed.

--Sebis

Just out of curiosity, how are you certain “…nobody else noticed.�? There may have been many folks that noticed, and just didn’t care.

Maybe they thought he was LEO…maybe they thought he was CHL…maybe more average folks are pro RKBA then we think.

I know a lot of folks that don’t carry and have no interest in getting a CHL. But they really don’t care if other folks do. They think its over-the-top and a little paranoid, so they don’t do it, but it’s no big deal if others do. I can live with that attitude…

But to the question of should he have concealed it better, as the majority have stated, I think he should.

[TheYoungGuy]

Most people aren't looking. Before getting my CHL, I never noticed these things either. I now find myself checking out cops' weapons when they aren't looking.

I thought I was going to be then one to say it but VP beat me to it. While concealing is vital, I think we would all be suprised how little others notice these things. Now that I've gone through the CHL process, I find myself constantly thinking, "Is he packing?".

[Target1911]

I never thought about it myself untill i got serious about getting my CHL. But since then i have found myself LOOKING too. At work i wear a mechanic style shirt, usually untucked, and my cell phone could easily be seen by others as I am packin just cuz it bulges out and you cant tell what it is. I have to worried if the grip on my 1911 would print, but then i think, what if i had a coppy of a gun mag i was reading in my back pocket, it would bulge too. As would a screw driver, or anything else that is stickin out of your pocket or on you belt.
I say just dont make it obvious

[pbandjelly]

I see guys here that carry some big ole guns in hospital scrubs.

Ah say, Ah say, Ah resemble that remark!

would that qualify as covert, cause you can barely carry a wallet, car keys, or a cell phone in those flippin' things!!!