Juvenile felony conviction - automatic disqualification?

[Idjut]

Hello, all. I have not written an introductory e-mail because I do not know if I am even eligible to get a CHL.

For reference, I have mailed my completed application form to DPS on March 27, 2007.

I have made at least two stupid mistakes:

1) I did not mention a juvenile conviction on my application because the record was sealed when I turned 21 (I am currently 32). Reading through this forum it has become painfully obvious that sealing a record does not mean anything in regards to CHL applications. DPS and/or the FBI may access these records freely.

2) Having found this out, I called the Bexar county juvenile court to see about getting a copy of my records. I was absolutely stunned when the guy I talked to on the phone told me that the charge was a third-degree felony (burglary of a vehicle). So apparantly I have been a felon for 20-21 years and didn't even know it.

So I have a problem. My suspicion is that I am ineligible for a CHL, juvenile charge or not. Also, I initialled on my affidavit that I had never been convicted of a felony. So now I am exposed to perjury charges?!

Anyway, I am going to call the DPS first thing next week and tell them all this. It really sucks that I might be ineligible for something I did when I was 11-12 years old, but I suppose that them's the breaks. FWIW, the extent of my criminal history since then has been two traffic tickets (one deserved, the other bogus).

I guess I am posting this for the benefit of the community. I will update when I get any new information.

Any comments are appreciated. Advise will be taken with a grain of salt!

[nitrogen]

Was it more than 10 years ago?

If so, you're ok, you just need to be sure you mentioned it on your app. One of the other folks can chime in with better details.

[txinvestigator]

Your case depends. If you were certified and tried as an adult then you have a problem.

If your case was adjudicated as a juvenile, then you are fine. In Texas, juveniles cannot be convicted of penal code criminal law unless certified to stand trial as an adult. As a juvenile, you are judged as either Conduct Needing Supervision, or Delinquent Conduct. Felony Grade Delinquent conduct is a 10 year prohibitor form the date of adjudication.

Don't depend on what a guy on the phone told you. You did not lie if you were adjudicated in juvenile court. When you talk to DPS explain that you thought the juvenile record was not a felony and you had NO intention of misleading them. They will either direct you as to what paperwork to provide or they will investigate the charge themselves.

Edit; HOLY MOLY, you were 11-12? I am pretty sure you CANNOT be certified as an adult if under 14 at the time of the commission of the crime. I can look it up, but its too late right now.

[Idjut]

Thanks for your replies. I am actually starting to get a little hope that all is not dead!

From the Texas Penal Code:

CHAPTER 8. GENERAL DEFENSES TO CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

§ 8.07. AGE AFFECTING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY.

(a) A person may not be prosecuted for or convicted of any offense that
the person committed when younger than 15 years of age except:
(1) perjury and aggravated perjury when it appears by
proof that the person had sufficient discretion to understand the
nature and obligation of an oath;
(2) a violation of a penal statute cognizable under
Chapter 729, Transportation Code, except for conduct for which the
person convicted may be sentenced to imprisonment or confinement in
jail;
(3) a violation of a motor vehicle traffic ordinance
of an incorporated city or town in this state;
(4) a misdemeanor punishable by fine only other than
public intoxication;
(5) a violation of a penal ordinance of a political
subdivision;

...

(b) Unless the juvenile court waives jurisdiction under
Section 54.02, Family Code, and certifies the individual for
criminal prosecution or the juvenile court has previously waived
jurisdiction under that section and certified the individual for
criminal prosecution, a person may not be prosecuted for or
convicted of any offense committed before reaching 17 years of age
except an offense described by Subsections (a)(1)-(5).

...

I guess number (4) has me confused. I definitely do not qualify for criminal prosecution and (1), (2), (3), or (5). I guess number (4) has me confused.

[txinvestigator]

Thanks for your replies. I am actually starting to get a little hope that all is not dead!

From the Texas Penal Code:

CHAPTER 8. GENERAL DEFENSES TO CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

§ 8.07. AGE AFFECTING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY.

(a) A person may not be prosecuted for or convicted of any offense that
the person committed when younger than 15 years of age except:
(1) perjury and aggravated perjury when it appears by
proof that the person had sufficient discretion to understand the
nature and obligation of an oath;
(2) a violation of a penal statute cognizable under
Chapter 729, Transportation Code, except for conduct for which the
person convicted may be sentenced to imprisonment or confinement in
jail;
(3) a violation of a motor vehicle traffic ordinance
of an incorporated city or town in this state;
(4) a misdemeanor punishable by fine only other than
public intoxication;
(5) a violation of a penal ordinance of a political
subdivision;

...

(b) Unless the juvenile court waives jurisdiction under
Section 54.02, Family Code, and certifies the individual for
criminal prosecution or the juvenile court has previously waived
jurisdiction under that section and certified the individual for
criminal prosecution, a person may not be prosecuted for or
convicted of any offense committed before reaching 17 years of age
except an offense described by Subsections (a)(1)-(5).

...

I guess number (4) has me confused. I definitely do not qualify for criminal prosecution and (1), (2), (3), or (5). I guess number (4) has me confused.

4 Means any Class C Misdemeanors (those are the only onces punishible by fine only) other that Public Intox. That means you COULD be fined for PI as a juvie, bit not for example, any of the Class C disorderly conducts.

Double checking the family code I find that a person under 10 is not eligible to be handled under the juvenile system. So if you were 11-12 , you most likely were handled under the Juvenile system.

Let us know when you get your CHL!!

[Idjut]

txinvestigator, so I wonder where third and second-degree felonies fall into this? Reading all of Section 8.07, the only mention of felonies are capital, aggravated controlled substance, and first degree. So unless a juvenile kills someone or sells dope while packing, then they cannot be tried in adult court? Weird. BTW, I read (4) the other way, that a kid under 15 could be prosecuted for ANY misdemeanor punishable by fine only EXCEPT for PI.


Either way, I'm starting to think I might be in good shape.

Again from the Texas Penal Code:

...

§ 30.04. BURGLARY OF VEHICLES. (a) A person commits an
offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, he breaks
into or enters a vehicle or any part of a vehicle with intent to
commit any felony or theft.
(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:
(1) any part of the body; or
(2) any physical object connected with the body.
(c) For purposes of this section, a container or trailer
carried on a rail car is a part of the rail car.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor
unless the vehicle or part of the vehicle broken into or entered is
a rail car, in which event the offense is a state jail felony.
(e) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor entered a rail car or any part of a rail car and was at
that time an employee or a representative of employees exercising a
right under the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq.).

...

So even if I were convicted of a Burglary of Vehicles charge as a 12 year old, this would 'only' rate as a Class A misdemeanor? That's my reading of it, since it wasn't a rail car.

[KBCraig]

So even if I were convicted of a Burglary of Vehicles charge as a 12 year old, this would 'only' rate as a Class A misdemeanor? That's my reading of it, since it wasn't a rail car.

The penalties may have been different 21 years ago, and you have to go by what the penalties were at that time.

[txinvestigator]

So even if I were convicted of a Burglary of Vehicles charge as a 12 year old, this would 'only' rate as a Class A misdemeanor? That's my reading of it, since it wasn't a rail car.

The penalties may have been different 21 years ago, and you have to go by what the penalties were at that time.

KB has a valid point. I believe BMV was a felny then.

Still, Idjut just needs to contact DPS with his mistake, and he should be fine, don't you agree?

[RPBrown]

Welcome to the forum Idjut.

I think TXI and KB are correct. I would however call DPS and explain the mistake.

[Idjut]

I called the 1-800 number and told the woman about the 'omission' from the criminal history section of the application. I asked if I should send a letter and she said no. She said that if the juvenile history is 'found' during the background check then I would be contacted if additional information is required and have 90 days from that point to resolve with DPS.

The key point I got from this call is that not listing the offense on the application will not count as an automatic disqualifier. Apparently, this issue has come up before! She said that there is leniency in the application process in regards to not reporting juvenile offenses since there is a general misunderstanding of what 'sealed' means.

I will update whenever I get more info. Thanks for the advice and support, guys.

[ElGato]

I called the 1-800 number and told the woman about the 'omission' from the criminal history section of the application. I asked if I should send a letter and she said no. She said that if the juvenile history is 'found' during the background check then I would be contacted if additional information is required and have 90 days from that point to resolve with DPS.

The key point I got from this call is that not listing the offense on the application will not count as an automatic disqualifier. Apparently, this issue has come up before! She said that there is leniency in the application process in regards to not reporting juvenile offenses since there is a general misunderstanding of what 'sealed' means.

I will update whenever I get more info. Thanks for the advice and support, guys.

Good post, there is information here that I didn't know, do keep us updated.

[Idjut]

As of 04 May 2007:

"Application Completed - license issued or certificate active"

Yeeeeeeehawwwwwww!

Thanks again for the advice all. I hope that someone else in my situation will search this forum and find this thread. To think that I almost called DPS and to beg them to withdraw and trash my application!

[Glockamolie]

This sorta goes along with a saying that I like: "Worrying is like paying on a debt that you don't even know if you owe."

Congrats!

[kw5kw]

Congratulations,

I'm very glad to hear that you're going to get your plastic.

Carry safe on your wally walk!

Russ

[BrassMonkey]

And don't break into anymore cars... HAHA jk :-D