TexasCHLforum.com

You might be surprised to find that if you were to shoot someone, it would ruin you financially and that the fight of your life would NOT be on the street but in court. And don't tell me that you can get a "free" public defender because I've seen public defenders fall asleep in court.

Instead of the usual internet bravado, here's a little sanity. Instead of telling people when to shoot or how best to shoot, I'm gonna point out how NOT to shoot. A lot of times, people on the internet get kinda melodramatic and say things like, "Well, I'd rather shoot and be alive to deal with it in court later than be dead." Remember, besides Americans, I don't know of any other country with as much gun freedom as we have. How would THESE PEOPLE deal with the same problem? I invite you to be not so gun centric in your self-defense strategy. There are other ways to resolve things MUCH less expensively than putting a lump of lead into someone. Don't get me wrong, I'd shoot somone if it were ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, but you'd better make sure that it really is absolutely necessary or you'd be coughing up a million bucks in legal bills. Even in the best case scenario, you shoot, it is declared a "good shoot" by the grand jury and there is no civil case because the perp is an illegal immigrant, you'd still have to cough up the price of a new car in legal bills. Look at Joe Horn. Don't get lulled into the false security of those "legal shield" insurance policies, either. Remember, "legal shield" will cover your lawyer's presence in court, but NOT your lawyer's presence on TV with you for an interview trying to clear your name with the masses and it certainly won't cover the cost of those $500 per hour "expert witnesses".

I personally carry at least a tactical flashlight with scalloped edge along with my gun. Sometimes, I even carry pepper spray with my gun. If tasers are smaller and more concealable, I'd consider one, too. I'm also considering Krav Maga Israeli martial arts class.


http://chockblock.wordpress.com/2008/08 ... ll-people/

A lot of people concentrate on how to practice shooting, how to deal with an attacker, but come up empty handed on what to do AFTER you've shot someone. The most important thing is NOT to talk to police before your lawyer gets there. Have a lawyer's business card in your wallet ready. That Oklahoma pharmacist who is now in jail certainly wishes he'd kept his mouth shut. His adrenaline fueled inconsistent testimony prior to his lawyer's arrival wiped out his credibility as a witness.

The ethical thing to do is to apply first aid to your attacker after you've shot him, as long as it doesn't endanger you. That attacker may look dead, but you're no doctor, are you? Remember, you're there to stop the threat, not to execute a varmint. Now, I wouldn't place my hand on a bloody wound as that attacker may be HIV positive so that action would place myself at risk. I'm not gonna do mouth to mouth either as that perp may have herpes. However, I would clear his airway by tilting the perp's head back. I may even do other first aid, skills, personal safety, and equipment limitations permitting.
http://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/ ... tizenship/

Finally, whenever I enter into a higher risk situation, I always run video with a $15 pen video recorder I bought on ebay. For example, whenever I go to fill up gasoline at 10pm at night, I'll run video. I also run video at all traffic stops. 300 yards from my home, a cop gunned down someone accidentally last year because he stupidly used the flashlight on his gun as an illuminator instead of an independent flashlight. Cops are just like the general population. There are good cops and bad ones. If you had to shoot a police officer in self defense like Kenneth Green ( http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sectio ... id=8339076 ), you'd BETTER HAVE VIDEO. Also, I'm considering buying a Miguel Caballero bullet resistant polo shirt. If you drive an old car in a nice neighborhood, have a tail light out, are of the wrong skin tone for the neighborhood (black in a white neighborhood or white in a black neighborhood) or enjoy speeding late at night, then that's a high risk situation as it will put you into a "situation" with someone armed and in uniform. Just because they're in a uniform doesn't automatically make him a "good guy", especially if you're in New York, Las Vegas, or Chicago. Witness Erik Scott, who was accidentally shot the first time, but, realizing their error, the cops shot him in the back while he was on the ground to make sure that he'd die so they could cover up their crime. http://gangstersinblue.org/category/nevada/

Just an example of a good "no shoot", besides...he had to go to work!


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07 ... s-planned/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

curious about your video pen.... can you provide details on it?

flechero wrote:curious about your video pen.... can you provide details on it?

...
Looks like a regular pen but records high def color video and audio for 45 min. For longer recordings, I'd alter my shirt pocket to be shorter so that the cam on the smart phone just peeks out over the top of the shirt pocket. The advantage would be that you could instantly post to youtube so that crooked cops cannot erase the video a la Erik Scott.

Yeah, that guy who hog tied the burglar and went to work. Such work ethic. I'd like to hire that guy!

I'd probably knock him unconscious with a pan first before zip tying him. To have rushed a guy with not even a pan as a weapon and then using rope to tie someone up, which requires high manual dexterity in a high adrenaline situation, now that's a REAL MAN.

While I understand the intent of this posting, its stuff like this that has me wishing I were a "mountain man" instead of an aircraft mechanic. That way I could simply go far away from any general interaction with other human beings and not have to worry about stuff like this. This world is absolutely insane. Human beings were NOT meant to live like this, worrying that the tiniest little wrong thing you did to save your life in the face of unprovoked and potentially deadly aggression could get you put into a cage with other human beings who ACTIVELY SOUGHT TO INITIATE VIOLENCE against others for their own pleasure or profit. And we shouldn't have to worry that our own "justice system" is possibly more dangerous to us than the criminal elements. I think the Founding Fathers would be most distressed indeed if they could see how things have turned out, for I refuse to believe that they meant for it to be this way.

drjoker wrote:You might be surprised to find that if you were to shoot someone, it would ruin you financially and that the fight of your life would NOT be on the street but in court.

That would surprise me because I don't live in Chicago, New York, Austin, etc.

See my reference to Joe Horn for an example of what would happen to you if everything went your way. You'd still spend the price of a new car in legal fees. Let's put it in terms a fellow "gun nut" would understand. Your defense would cost you more than a Barret M82A1 and a Nightforce Scope with 500 rounds of 50 bmg ammo. Subtract the 500 rounds of ammo if you have "legal shield" insurance.

sunny beach wrote:

drjoker wrote:You might be surprised to find that if you were to shoot someone, it would ruin you financially and that the fight of your life would NOT be on the street but in court.

That would surprise me because I don't live in Chicago, New York, Austin, etc.

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will happen. Many people win Lotto every year but that doesn't guarantee I will become a millionaire if I buy a ticket tomorrow.

I get the point of your post. I do. However, the title, "A Little Sanity" implies a bit more than perhaps you wanted to convey. The members of this board are not insane raving lunatics. They are law-abiding responsible adults (for the most part ). I know you don't think that everyone here lacks sanity, but your title implies it.

The bottom line is, you have to have thought through scenarios in advance and have a "red line" in your mind about when the threshold for deadly force is crossed. If you're trying to weight ethical, legal, and financial considerations when the act is occurring, your family may very well find out how good that funeral insurance really is. I appreciate this post as a spur to thoughtful consideration of hypotheticals. However, it will not deter me from the use of force if the situation crossed my red line.

My sincere hope (though naïve in some cases) is that my actions would stand alone and the forces that be would see no need for charges of any kind. The civil cases will have to be faced if they come.

--NEB

Lucky wrote:Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will happen. Many people win Lotto every year but that doesn't guarantee I will become a millionaire if I buy a ticket tomorrow.

I wish I had statistics to give you. Although no one will tell you what "might" happen, just do a little search and see how many valid self defense events end up in court. And they're not isolated to Austin or Chicago. Are most of the shooting that you read about associated with some form of legal enforcement? Although or justice system is "innocent until guilty", it's really "guilty until you can afford to be innocent".

I appreciated what our CHL instructor had to say, which was "on average" a shooting incurs $50k in legal costs. Again, no idea where he got that statistic. What I didn't appreciate so much was an attitude of some people in class that seemed to indicate this made them more likely to continue shooting once they started shooting, as that "might" decrease the likely hood of a civil case... I just think that's flawed logic.

$50k has to be light.. Didn't it cost that guy $25k in Round Rock in terms of legal bills to defend against "failure to conceal"?

I appreciate the link provided above:
Shout
Show
Shove
Shoot

I wasn't taught that, but I think it's good..


Joker, I did look at your links, but clearly there is an anti-LEO agenda there...

I don't have any statistics either but I can't resist replying to a discussion like this.

What you should also realize is that anything you post here will be used in a court case, probably against you.

rotor wrote:What you should also realize is that anything you post here will be used in a court case, probably against you.

Yep, I have lost all "faith" in the system.

rotor wrote:What you should also realize is that anything you post here will be used in a court case, probably against you.

What is it that I'm saying here that I wouldn't want used it court? Can't think of anything. Use it. Use all of it. Please use it!

If you're concerned about it, ask the site owner to stop allowing Google crawls. The content can be made much less searchable.

I read this today... I wonder how many people would have just shot this guy:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07 ... s-planned/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, forum members aren't insane. Heck, I'm a forum member ain't I? I just wanted to create a headline that would cause people to click on. After all, it would be a waste of time to create a post that no one reads. Yes, second guessing yourself during a lethal force encounter will be deadly. I did post in the past on this forum that everyone has to have a personal "red line" that if crossed, would use lethal force. That way, you don't have to think and second guess yourself. You only have to see, "hey, red line is crossed, BANG." Also, I think a lot of fellow gun enthusiasts are too gun centric in their defense plans. I used to be this way and this made me feel naked in secured areas of airports, places posted 30.06 and during foreign travels.

For example, this is my "red line" and you're free to make your own "red line";
1. perp over 20 ft away & no gun, use verbal de-escalation and/or verbal commands.
2. perp less than 20 ft away & no gun, no knife. use pepper spray and/or blind with tactical flashlight.
3. perp less than 20 ft away with knife or at any distance with gun, shoot.

The tactical flashlight is the best "weapon" that is not legally a "weapon" to use for self defense in foreign countries, airports, 30.06 posted places. This is because in even the most draconian weapon banned places, flashlights are still legal. For example, in China, eveything from stun guns, tazers, pepper spray, knives and firearms, even certain "overpowered" airsoft guns are illegal. However, a flashlight is still legal in Great Britain, China, etc. Even against a perp with a gun at a long distance away, the tactical flashlight can be used to temporarily blind the attacker for 1-2 seconds so that you could make a quick escape. At closer range, it could be used as a blunt weapon for self defense.

One time in China, I saw a security guard who stood guard in front of the elevator go the bathroom. Immediately, a young man walked towards the elevator but hung out behind a large pot plant about 15 ft away from the elevator. When I started to walk towards the elevator, he darted out from behind the pot plant and walked towards the elevator. I kept a large mag light in my backpack and quickly removed it so that he saw my mag light in my hand. It was the big 18 inch mag light. He turned around and left the scene. Thugs don't have a job and rob/rape/kill because it is easier to do so than honest work. If you make it hard for them then the lazy thug will just move on to an easier victim. If they wanted hard work, they would've gotten a job instead. You don't have to be super tough. You just have to let them know that you're gonna be hard work for them if they try to victimize you.

NEB wrote:I get the point of your post. I do. However, the title, "A Little Sanity" implies a bit more than perhaps you wanted to convey. The members of this board are not insane raving lunatics. They are law-abiding responsible adults (for the most part ). I know you don't think that everyone here lacks sanity, but your title implies it.

The bottom line is, you have to have thought through scenarios in advance and have a "red line" in your mind about when the threshold for deadly force is crossed. If you're trying to weight ethical, legal, and financial considerations when the act is occurring, your family may very well find out how good that funeral insurance really is. I appreciate this post as a spur to thoughtful consideration of hypotheticals. However, it will not deter me from the use of force if the situation crossed my red line.

My sincere hope (though naïve in some cases) is that my actions would stand alone and the forces that be would see no need for charges of any kind. The civil cases will have to be faced if they come.

--NEB