this kid with road rage tried to fight me today

[aus10m]

I am new to this forum (this is my first post). I obtained my TX CHL in October and am very new to having a gun in my car (glove box) or on myself. I got my CHL because as a Realtor, I sometimes end up in parts of Houston that are really sketchy, and there have been cases recently where people will call a Realtor to see a property and that RE agent gets robbed.

Today, while I was driving to the gym, some teenage looking kid in a honda pilot was driving erratically and weaving in and out of traffic. I ended up going in the same direction as him, and he stared me down at a stop sign and started putting his hands up with a confrontational gesture. Then he pulled in front of me and threw his car into 'park' and opened his door and got out of his car putting his hands up again. I drove around him. Well, he then jumped back into his car and sped past me sticking his head and arm out of the window suggesting he wanted to fight me and proceeded to the next stop sign and again put his car into park and got out putting his hands up.

I had my .380 in my glove box (locked at the time) and it was pretty intimidating moment so I stopped and put my car into park, put my hazards on, got my firearm out, put a round in the chamber and placed it under my leg. At this point he was still at the stop sign ahead of me suggesting he wanted to fight or something.

My gym (which was my initial destination) was the next block up, so I waited for oncoming traffic to turn left to pull into the parking lot. Meanwhile, he was then at the next stop sign down (one further from the previous stop sign that he was out of his car trying to fight), out of his car, waving at me trying to intimidate me into a fight.

I know that w/ a CHL you're not supposed to pull it in a public area or during a fight and from what I know, you're allowed to use it if your vehicle window is broken by someone while you're in your car (during a robbery or assault).

So my question is: In a situation like this, would I have had to wait for him to try to break my window in order to take any action?

Believe me, shooting someone is the last thing I ever want to do. AND I am glad I turned into my gym to avoid any altercation/confrontation. Eventually I calmed down and thought about what would have happened if I reacted to his idiocy by allowing the situation to escalate. The aftermath/effect if I actually had a broken window and shot him would have not been worth it and my day/month even my 2014 year would have been ruined. As a Realtor, I definitely do not want to end up in the news for shooting someone, especially in a situation like that.

As a chl newbie, I just want to be on the right page so that in a situation like this I don't overreact, and from what I realized today, it's better to avoid using the deadly/lethal force at all costs.

Any advice/input is appreciated as I am trying to learn to do the right thing to avoid situations like this.

[WildBill]

Any advice/input is appreciated as I am trying to learn to do the right thing to avoid situations like this.

Welcome to the forum.

Keep driving and call 911.

Get some more training.

[Shoot_First]

I am new to this forum (this is my first post). I obtained my TX CHL in October and am very new to having a gun in my car (glove box) or on myself. I got my CHL because as a Realtor, I sometimes end up in parts of Houston that are really sketchy, and there have been cases recently where people will call a Realtor to see a property and that RE agent gets robbed.

Today, while I was driving to the gym, some teenage looking kid in a honda pilot was driving erratically and weaving in and out of traffic. I ended up going in the same direction as him and we ended up at a stop sign side by side and he stared me down and started putting his hands up with a confrontational gesture.

Then he pulled in front of me and threw his car into 'park' and opened his door and got out of his car putting his hands up again. I drove around him. Well, he then jumped back into his car and sped past me sticking his head and arm out of the window suggesting he wanted to fight me and proceeded to the next stop sign and again put his car into park and got out putting his hands up.

I had my .380 in my glove box (locked at the time) and it was pretty intimidating moment so I stopped and put my car into park, put my hazards on, got my firearm out, put a round in the chamber and placed it under my leg. At this point he was still at the stop sign ahead of me suggesting he wanted to fight or something.

My gym (which was my initial destination) was the next block up so I waited to turn left to pull into the parking lot, meanwhile he was then at the next stop sign down (one further from the previous stop sign that he was out of his car trying to fight), out of his car, waving at me trying to intimidate me into a fight.

I know that w/ a CHL you're not supposed to pull it in a public area or during a fight and from what I know, you're allowed to use it if your vehicle window is broken by someone while you're in your car.

So my question is: In a situation like this, would I have had to wait for him to try to break my window in order to take any action?

Believe me, shooting someone is the last thing I ever want to do. AND I am glad I turned into my gym to avoid any altercation/confrontation. After this situation was over I was so wound up, I had my weapon out and thoughts were going a million miles per second through my mind. Eventually I calmed down and thought about what would have happened if I reacted to his idiocy. The aftermath/effect if I actually had a broken window and shot him would have not been worth it and my day/month would have been ruined.

As a chl newbie, I just want to be on the right page so that in a situation like this I don't overreact, and from what I realized today, it's better to avoid using the deadly/lethal force at all costs.

Any advice/input is appreciated as I am trying to learn to do the right thing to avoid situations like this.

Welcome to the forum. What was the gun-related political issue?

[aus10m]

wow. ok then. Just tell me where to post this and I will.

I see that the regulars here don't play around

[Wes]

Tough situation, I've had something similar happen but he tried yo confront me at a gas station. I definitely agree with the above, find a place near you with a pistol training course so you are more comfortable with your firearm. Then go to the range again and again and again, until you are secure in handling and using it. That way you can properly have the gun loaded +1 and not locked away in your glove box. If you really needed it in a hurry, it's gonna do you no good locked up.

Also, using any sort of indicator like a window smashed out as your justification for shooting isn't really the best option. Your gun should be your last resort in protecting your life and while you can use it for protection of property in certain situations, if you can safely get away, ie drive away, then doing so will save a lot of headaches. The law now does have protection for pulling your weapon and not firing it but this is very dangerous IMO. I'd recommend reading the law over more precisely and talking through scenarios with someone you trust to help you be better prepared in the future. Here is a great place.

(A mod will move the thread, don't worry about it)

[aus10m]

Thanks for the input/advice.

a little about my past w/ guns.

I am totally comfortable with my firearms. I just hadn't taken the next step in getting my CHL until recently.

I have worked at a gun range in the sporting clays as a trapper, during my High School years and I used to sort the reload-able hulls when the range was slow. I learned how to clean birds at the age of 11. I grew up in the desert of El Paso shooting all kinds of guns and some of my friends dads were military at Ft Bliss, so we had a wide range of guns to shoot. Gun handling/shooting/hunting I've been doing since 1990 (when I was 10 years old). So what I am getting to is, this type of experience isn't something lack.

My experience lacks when it comes to CHL in public, and what to do, and, when it's ok to do it. And, I realize that it's better to not use the weapon unless it's life threatening, so I guess this post was unnecessary.

I'm over it now. On to the next. Thanks for reading my little story and I'll try not to ask stupid questions in the future.

[WildBill]

Thanks for the input/advice.

a little about my past w/ guns.

I am totally comfortable with my firearms. I just hadn't taken the next step in getting my CHL until recently.

I have worked at a gun range in the sporting clays as a trapper, during my High School years and I used to sort used to sort reload-able hulls when the range was slow. I learned how to clean birds at the age of 11. I grew up in the desert of El Paso shooting all kinds of guns and some of my friends dads were military at Ft Bliss, so we had a wide range of guns to shoot. Gun handling/shooting/hunting I've been doing since 1990 (when I was 10 years old). So what I am getting to is, this type of experience isn't something lack.

My experience lacks when it comes to CHL in public, and what to do, and, when it's ok to do it. And, I realize that it's better to not use the weapon unless it's life threatening, so I guess this post was unnecessary.

I'm over it now. On to the next. Thanks for reading my little story and I'll try not to ask stupid questions in the future.

Don't feel bad or the need to apologize. I have been shooting for many years. Like you, my experience with concealed carry is fairly new so my practical experience is limited. Please use this forum as an opportunity to learn and grow.

[Wes]

No question is stupid when a better understanding of it could mean someone lives or dies and you go to jail or not. That's what this place is for and I'm sure I've asked my fair share of stupid questions before but others answers always help someone. The one concern I have tho, is this stuff should have been covered better in your chl class so ask away so people here can help. No harm in asking any question.

[MotherBear]

If you have your CHL, I'd suggest carrying on your body rather than in a locked glove box. Having to mess around with the gun and chamber a round in the car while stopped on the street is less than ideal. The other thing that jumped out at me was, how did you put the gun under your leg in such a way that it was safe? I'm just having a hard time picturing it. I would definitely reevaluate where you keep the gun.

I know it's is a women's website, but I would definitely recommend doing some reading here: http://www.corneredcat.com/contents/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; When I started pursuing getting a gun and a CHL, I found TONS of practical, "have you thought about...?" things on there. She has a good blog, too. Be aware that she doesn't live in Texas so there will be legal differences, but she talks a lot about the every day ins and outs of having a gun with you.

[Shoot_First]

Your post was great. Don't take my comment about it being in the "political" forum too serious. I've done the same thing, but after reading the description listed below each topic subject heading, I don't do it often now.

From a tactical view, my thought that having your pistol in a locked glove box at the time of need might not be best. I understand your likely concern for security of your firearm, but perhaps it would be better on your person especially when you show a house. I would recommend a 9mm vice the .380, but any pistol is better than nothing.

[The Annoyed Man]

Thanks for reading my little story and I'll try not to ask stupid questions in the future.

It's not a stupid question, and no, you don't have to wait for someone to actually break your window before you can draw your gun. Obviously, you have a sort of ethical responsibility to try and remove yourself from the situation if possible. MIND YOU: this is not a legal requirement. Texas is a Stand Your Ground state. If you have the legal right to be where you are, you have the legal right to defend yourself where you are. If you are not the instigator, you have a clear right to defend yourself without legal liability. That said, if you can get away and evade the situation, that is a better choice than getting into a shooting. Depending on where you are, you can simply drive to the local police station, call 911 on the way, and let them know you're on the way in. There are a lot of other possibilities, but that's one that comes to mind immediately.

Now, assuming that you can't shake the guy and he gets you where it would be difficult to get away from you, you could have drawn your gun, and then while he is continuing to come at you, phone 911 and tell them what's going on. The first one to phone 911 is going to be viewed as the good guy by the po-po. In all likelihood, once he sees your gun, he backs off.

The law has been amended. It used to read:

TPC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

That same section was revised in this last legislative session to read:

TPC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place in a manner calculated to cause alarm and not pursuant to a justified use of force or threat of force as described in Chapter 9.

Chapter 9 of the penal code says:

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

If a guy is challenging you to a fight and will not let you alone, he is threatening you with the risk of death or serious bodily injury. You may dissuade him by producing a gun, so long as your purpose is limited to making the bad guy think that he'll get shot if he keeps up the threats. If he actually attacks you, you may shoot him.

Whether or not it is worth it to you to shoot him is something only you can decide. Just know that even if it is righteous, you'll have a LOT of fallout to deal with.

At least that is my understanding. I am not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice. If someone else has better information, I'll defer to their wisdom.

[aus10m]

thanks all,

you should have seen me put my car into park, unlock my glovebox, pull out my 380 and chamber a round... it was quite a hassle. LOL. Now that I look back at it, it was very novice and totally unnecessary. The 380 I have is very small so fitting it under my leg was similar to putting a phone under your leg.

I have a small/cheap 9mm (SCCY CPX 2) that I bought for carrying, but at 5'10" - 135lbs, the 9mm is just a little too bulky for me to carry. My 380 is a P3AT and it's not as bulky and noticeable when I have it on myself, I got it because of it's size/weight. The reason I don't always carry it is because I can't take into my office and there are several business that I frequent that display the no firearms signs, so I figure its just better to not carry it unless I see myself going into a sketchy part of town.

Also,
I will check out that website (http://www.corneredcat.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

thanks again

[Charles L. Cotton]

wow. ok then. Just tell me where to post this and I will.

I see that the regulars here don't play around

Welcome to the Forum and don't worry about posting in a different forum. That's an easy fix for a Moderator and it's easy for a new Member to make that mistake. I think you'll find the "regulars" are very accommodating and helpful.

Chas.

[ELB]

aus10m,

Welcome to the forum!

Also - congratulations. Overall you did right. You were in a bad situation, you got out without getting hurt, nobody else got hurt, and no legal entanglements. Well done.

+1 to keeping your gun fully loaded (i.e. one in the chamber, full mag inserted), and close at hand. Sounds like you got that message.

When you ask if you could have taken action before your window was broken, it sounds like you mean using your gun in some manner. I think The Annoyed Man provides the most direct answer to your question. You have also gotten advice which consists of a mixture of legalities and tactics and so forth, which sometimes clouds the actual question and issue at hand.

I find it helpful to think of these situations as operating on three levels simultaneously: the legal, the tactical, and the moral. It is a happy day when you can get your action to meet the requirements of all three levels simultaneously. Actions that are legally and morally sound (stand your ground) might not be tactically wise. Things that are tactically advantageous might not be legally or morally justified in a given situation. When you are what-iffing and war-gaming various scenarios, it might help you to figure out the best options if you break them into their legal, tactical, and moral components. At least it helps me.

I don't know if you are aware that the very first CHL-involved shooting in Texas was a traffic event right after the law came into force. You might find it interesting to compare notes (and value the wisdom of keeping your window rolled up). Documented details are hard to come by now, not least of which is because the anti-gun forces immediately used it to try to squelch Texas's new CHL program. Newspapers deliberately underplayed what happened, calling it a "minor traffic accident" and "scuffle" and so forth. As far as I have been able to determine, the details are thus:

The new CHL law came into effect on 1 Jan 96. On 21 Feb 96, Kenny Tavai clipped a mirror on Gordon Hale's vehicle, a pickup I think, but did not stop initially. Hale followed and got a license plate number. When both vehicles came to a stop, Tavai walked back to Hale's vehicle. Hale rolled down his window expecting to talk to Tavai. However, Tavai yelled at Hale, then punched him through the window several times, by some reports breaking a cheek bone and detaching a retina in Hale's eye (altho this is left out of the vast majority of newspaper articles). Tavai then grabbed Hale and tried to drag him out of the vehicle. Hale came up with a pistol, usually reported as a .40 caliber, and shot Tavai once in the chest. Tavai died from the wound.

The Dallas police arrested Hale and the DA charged him with murder. A grand jury declined to indict him. The VPC was sad.

[K.Mooneyham]

Welcome to the forum. Though very few folks on here are lawyers (myself included), and none of this can be counted as legal advice, there is still a LOT of useful knowledge on this forum. And as for road rage incidents, unfortunately, they happen too often...the vast majority just don't end up to the point of physical violence.

A few weeks ago, as I was leaving our local community college, I pulled up at a four-way stop. A couple of seconds later, a pickup pulled up to the stop sign at the cross street to my right. He stopped a little hard as he was going a bit fast. I didn't think anything of it, and pulled out into the cross street by making a left-hand turn. No sooner than I made the turn, he squealed tires and came right up behind me. I sped up a little to put a bit of space between us but he closed the gap again. At that point, I realized something was going on with this guy. So, I put on my signal and pulled off to the side of the road so he could go around me, figuring if he's in a hurry, I'll just let him go. He went around me alright, and got a few yards ahead, but just as I pulled back into the lane to proceed, he whipped off to the side of the road up ahead. I stopped in the lane (with a couple of cars behind me now) and just sat there. Nobody behind me honked or anything; I think they knew something was up. I immediately got my cell phone in hand and prepared to dial 911. After a moment or two, he mashed on the pedal and sped off. When he got to the next four way up ahead, he turned right on red without stopping. Now, coming from the community college, I didn't have my pistol on me, but I had it in a small pouch in the compartment in the door where I could reach it quickly. Just like you, I'm glad nothing came of what happened, either. My adrenaline was pumping pretty hard and I felt myself getting irritated, but kept my cool. Its the best thing you can do, it will help you remain more alert. If you let yourself get mad, then something bad might happen that could have been avoided. Sounds to me like you did the right thing.