TexasCHLforum.com

So I've done a bunch of searching and find conflicting answers. I didnt' find anything on these forums regarding this topic specifically, though I ran across discussion whose members included KBCraig and srothstein on an LEO forum elsewhere. Their conclusion was that only LEOs conducting official business could carry, but this was according to a policy statement from Amtrak. I've not found any specific quotations of actual law in any of the discussions online, so it all seems like hearsay at this point. I'm looking for someone to cite applicable law if they can, so I have a good understanding of what the law really is here.

I've wanted to take Amtrak as a mode of leisurely travel for quite some time. From what I can tell, Amtrak is a corporation, but is owned and controlled by the federal government. Does this inherently preclude someone from carrying on Amtrak?

Amtrak is anything but leisurely. As long as you don't have to be anywhere by a certain time, i guess it's okay.

I've taken it once or twice. As long as you don't mind being 15+ hours late to your destination, its cool.

Amtrak won't even allow checked baggage with weapons. I wouldn't travel on them now for any reason due to that alone.

NcongruNt wrote:I've wanted to take Amtrak as a mode of leisurely travel for quite some time. From what I can tell, Amtrak is a corporation, but is owned and controlled by the federal government. Does this inherently preclude someone from carrying on Amtrak?

It is a curious beast, but Amtrak and its employees are not federal employees. Like all rail companies, Amtrak has its own "railroad police", who are also curious, legally speaking. The authority of RR police is often confused and obscure and varies from state to state, but the guns and handcuffs are real. If they deposit you in the local county jail, the jailers aren't inclined to listen to constitutional arguments. Their response will be, "Talk to the people who arrested you!" (And good luck on that!)

If you found discussions that involved srothstein and myself in a police forum, then you probably read the case of a railfan who was arrested for taking pictures while waiting for his connecting train. While he was absolutely in the right, he still spent some time in the New Orleans jail until things could be sorted out.

Here's the bottom line: if you purchase an Amtrak ticket, you agree to the terms of carriage. Check out the jurisdiction for dispute resolution:

Governing Law

All travel on, and transactions with, Amtrak is governed by the laws of the District of Columbia, United States of America, without regards to its principles of conflicts of law. You agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of any State or Federal court located in the District of Columbia, United States of America, and waive any jurisdictional, venue or inconvenient forum objections to such courts.

KBCraig wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:I've wanted to take Amtrak as a mode of leisurely travel for quite some time. From what I can tell, Amtrak is a corporation, but is owned and controlled by the federal government. Does this inherently preclude someone from carrying on Amtrak?

It is a curious beast, but Amtrak and its employees are not federal employees. Like all rail companies, Amtrak has its own "railroad police", who are also curious, legally speaking. The authority of RR police is often confused and obscure and varies from state to state, but the guns and handcuffs are real. If they deposit you in the local county jail, the jailers aren't inclined to listen to constitutional arguments. Their response will be, "Talk to the people who arrested you!" (And good luck on that!)

If you found discussions that involved srothstein and myself in a police forum, then you probably read the case of a railfan who was arrested for taking pictures while waiting for his connecting train. While he was absolutely in the right, he still spent some time in the New Orleans jail until things could be sorted out.

Here's the bottom line: if you purchase an Amtrak ticket, you agree to the terms of carriage. Check out the jurisdiction for dispute resolution:

Governing Law

All travel on, and transactions with, Amtrak is governed by the laws of the District of Columbia, United States of America, without regards to its principles of conflicts of law. You agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of any State or Federal court located in the District of Columbia, United States of America, and waive any jurisdictional, venue or inconvenient forum objections to such courts.

I do remember reading that discussion about the guy and his camera a couple of months ago, actually.

And eww. DC laws? My desire to travel Amtrak just dropped several notches. The novelty of rail travel just lost its appeal when weighed against the prospect of dealing with the laws of the District of Columbia. I'd sooner drive.

What I don't understand is how the only rail travel option for folks in the US is a federally-funded money sinkhole, while the rest of the world enjoys efficient cost-effective rail travel with much nicer accommodations and tracks in much better condition (and hence a smoother ride). Anyone I've spoken to who's traveled by train in Europe or Asia tells me how much the trains here suck.

One further point that I picked up somewhere: Security personnel in train stations use hand-held metal detectors for spot screening. Someone could get on a train in, say, Houston with a weapon, and get busted in New Orleans.

- Jim

Being ruled by DC law, the recent court decision may have interesting implications.

Back a long time ago I used to take Amtrak from Albany NY to NY City or Plattsburgh regularly, the trip was fairly relaxing and usually on time.

My boss used to get irked about my taking the train to Plattsburgh, until I pointed out that everyone else always took it to NY City and drove to Plattsburgh, and flew to Syracuse, and that the differential in travel times did not make a great deal of sense. After all, the trip to NY City was a shorter drive than the train, and the drive to NY was shorter than the drive to Plattsburgh, not to mention Syracuse.

Taking the train to Plattsburgh also allowed me to check a company car out of the motor pool, which added enough hours of use for them to justify one more car on the roster.

I have been a rail fan since I was a kid, but Amtrak has not gotten any business from me in years, just because of their anti-right policy.

As far as I can tell, the prohibition is only listed on their site. IE., it doesn't seem to be legally binding other than they can refuse to allow you to travel. But I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.

My last long Amtrak trips were pre-911; used to make the run from Newark, NJ to Anniston, AL to see my folks at least 3 times a year. Post 9/11, the my furthest trip was from Trenton, NJ to NYC. But even on that short trip, things did seem to be a little 'tighter' than the days of old.

NcongruNt wrote:What I don't understand is how the only rail travel option for folks in the US is a federally-funded money sinkhole, while the rest of the world enjoys efficient cost-effective rail travel with much nicer accommodations and tracks in much better condition (and hence a smoother ride). Anyone I've spoken to who's traveled by train in Europe or Asia tells me how much the trains here suck.

Simple: population density.

People live in much closer proximity in Europe and Japan. The cities are old and established, and they don't "sprawl" like American cities do. Fewer people own cars, so they live where they can walk or use public transportation.

In Europe you can get off the train at a major station and be within walking distance (or short bus/taxi ride) of the major attractions and hotels. But in America, you really don't want to be in the neighborhoods where the train stations are.

Within 500 miles, going downtown-to-downtown is faster by train than by air. But if your destination isn't downtown, you're probably out of luck.

I think another contributing factor was the rise of the automobile here in the US, it just never worked quite the same in other countries. Of course most of those other countries are much older and their infrastructure was well developed when cars came along, whereas the US infrastructure evolved with the auto.

I can well remember taking the train many times when I was a kid, and most of the places we passed through were communities that had grown up about and around the railroads, and as they expanded, as is so often the case, the stations were left in areas that became rundown, partly because of the freight traffic due to the location of the station. In Europe and Japan, the railroads also came in later, and they had no scruples about placing the tracks where it was most convenient for the railroad without regard for where the center of the community was, and they also had a habit of separating freight and passenger facilities.

The little village I grew up in had devolved into a "flag stop" on the railroad, if you wanted the train to stop and pick you up you hung a flag on the back of the firehouse (which used to be the station) and if you wanted it to let you off, you just bought a ticket to there. To ride the city bus into the city for a movie on Saturday cost $0.40, while the train, due to franchise rules (something else that did not occur in other countries) only cost $0.35, so every Saturday there would be a bunch of kids hanging out around the firehouse, with the flag out, waiting for the train so that we could go downtown for the movies with and extra $0.10 in our pockets (round trip you know.)

Our little village was also only there due to the railroad. When they came through the next village over refused to let the RR put in a hotel, because they already had one, so the stop moved a couple of miles down the road. The hotel still stands, even if the station is but a distant memory.

I've never ridden a 'real' train. So I've often thought I'd like to ride the Sunset Limited from Houston to El Paso, maybe further, and lay over and catch the eastbound back home.

Of course, with Amtrak's history, I might be in El Paso several days.

Plattsburgh... that is a name I have not heard in a long time... was stationed there once a LONG time ago... back when we had a big SAC base up there...

Actually not a bad town, and hunting was excellent... and Canada had not gone totally communist back then... SIGH... the good old days...

FWIW

Chuck

jimlongley wrote:Being ruled by DC law, the recent court decision may have interesting implications.

Back a long time ago I used to take Amtrak from Albany NY to NY City or Plattsburgh regularly, the trip was fairly relaxing and usually on time.

My boss used to get irked about my taking the train to Plattsburgh, until I pointed out that everyone else always took it to NY City and drove to Plattsburgh, and flew to Syracuse, and that the differential in travel times did not make a great deal of sense. After all, the trip to NY City was a shorter drive than the train, and the drive to NY was shorter than the drive to Plattsburgh, not to mention Syracuse.

Taking the train to Plattsburgh also allowed me to check a company car out of the motor pool, which added enough hours of use for them to justify one more car on the roster.

I have been a rail fan since I was a kid, but Amtrak has not gotten any business from me in years, just because of their anti-right policy.

Pre 1976, or have you ever gone to Carbur's?

I know having been in the rr enviroment for 40 years , I have ridden many of the fine and great passangers in my time . I can remember around the late sixty or early seventy the us mail traveled on the passengers . the federal gov, did and would fine the various rr co. if the us mail was late and that could result in we are talking millions back then that was still a lot of money. so believe it or not the rr slowly but surely let the trucking industry take over , passengers began to allow many things to start happening people started to take different modes of transportation. rr industries knew they could target the various industries that could and still do ship freight oh yes the trucking co. fight this but dollar for dollar the rail freight still has came out of top year after year. there or not that many rr co . to date BNSF,UP,CONRAIL (GOV.RUN) there are still a few short lines that runs what we called locals ,but guess who owns these?

EASTTEXGLOCKER wrote:I know having been in the rr enviroment for 40 years , I have ridden many of the fine and great passangers in my time.

Commercial rail passenger travel ended in 1969. That's when USPS switched to air and truck delivery of First Class Mail. Before then, the mail service subsidized passenger rail; the post office kept afloat an otherwise unprofitable system.

That's sad; I really do miss passenger rail service. I grew up on the railroad; my Grandfather and Dad were career operators/agents, and I worked summers on a section gang. Some of my fondest childhood memories involve catching the KCS passenger trains from DeQueen (where Dad was an operator) to Mena (where my grandmother lived), and back.

That ended by the time I entered Second Grade. Not because of the "evil corporations", but because of government interference in the marketplace.

Kevin

HI KEVIN I thought you were probably rr work are had relations that did I knew a comm mtr that worked for kcs in heaviner ok. (may spelled town wrong) I worked three summers on the section line myself 61-63.
then started in fall of 64 working line gang this turned into a maintainer job in 66 . worked for the CRI&P (ROCK ISLAND) until it went bankrupt
3/31/80. 10,000 of us lot our jobs, some were hired under bankruptcy reorganization that 14 rr signed on to I dont remember if KCS was one of them you may. any way 15 mo later got a rr job in kck with Southern Pacific. I NOT SURE when RI passenger shut down but remember riding out of okc on the santafe to chicago that was in 1971. I KNOW I need to keep this to (chl disscussion ) was in kck 10 years then came to tyler in fall of 90. UPRR took SSW and SP over 11/96. I retired 2/02 with UP was quite a up and down ride. we need to talk via e-mail could talk shooting and RR
DO you know don lynch in texarakana with UP.