Why two signs?

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Bitterclinger
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Why two signs?

#1

Post by Bitterclinger »

So, I'm probably just being thick here, but... If the .06 bans concealed, wouldn't it also ban open? Are there some situations where a location can ban concealed but allow open?

Ok, sure... How would I know if CC was OK? I get that, but I actually thought about it a minute, and I know lots of CHLers that are just as thick as me---thicker even. Not to mention the fact that both signs are the same kind of defacto waste of space as software EULAs which are invariably read and observed by absolutely no one. They subject business owners to unnecessary controversy and expense, to say nothing of the legal implications if they fail to post the proper sign.

This may also represent my misunderstanding of the situation, but the signs mean practically nothing to non CHL holders who could get the same warm-fuzzy from a gun-buster sign. We are the only people for whom it makes any legal difference, so couldn't we get by with something like an unobtrusive state seal with a simple 30.06 or 30.07 on it?

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AJSully421
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Re: Why two signs?

#2

Post by AJSully421 »

There are two signs to make life difficult for anti-gun sissies.

Really, the purpose is that some may want to disallow open carry while not knocking out concealed carry.
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NotRPB
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Re: Why two signs?

#3

Post by NotRPB »

Many places post a 30.07 prohibiting opencarry so patrons not yet used to it, don't get scared, but WANT concealed carriers there.

I know at least one church has lots of concealed carriers, doesn't want open carry distracting from sermons yet. Maybe later after people are used to it.... or in the kitchen or extra "smoking room" they can compare rigs now.
Roughly a third or fourth of the congregation used to be armed concealed though, depending on attendance. Hit the range after Service? Sure let's go, invite all the Deacons and their wives/families ...

Abraham
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Re: Why two signs?

#4

Post by Abraham »

Some of the difficult want to prove their insistent point by OCing in a 30.06 business.

To me, OCing when the 30.06 posted business obviously doesn't want guns on their property begs alienating these businesses.

I can see LEO's being called and you may or not take a ride. Do you really want to take that risk?

In an earlier thread, I made this same point.

Don't be an idiot and OC in a 30.06 posted business.
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fickman
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Re: Why two signs?

#5

Post by fickman »

I agree with the above - the intention is to allow a business to ban open carry without banning everything. A 30.06 only store is probably de facto banning everything, as an open carrier is almost certain to receive oral notice in such a business.

Thinking out loud. . .

Given that, as outlined above, a business posting only a valid 30.06 is essentially banning all guns, there is no risk of informing them of the signage. In such cases, perhaps we could inform them not that they are missing the open carry sign, but rather that they have the wrong sign. If they want to ban open carry, they need the 30.07, not the 30.06, because the law has been updated.

What's the risk? They investigate and post both. Assuming the above is true, we don't lose anything in practice. (There could be a small number of places that post 30.06 only because "if a gun comes in my business, I want to know about it" or I could see a combative OCT business owner posting 30.06 only, but these will be extremely rare, and would not post a 30.07 as a result of this conversation, so there is still no risk.)

What is the benefit? We may convert a place here and there from a de facto full ban to only banning open carry.

Hmmmmm. . .
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Re: Why two signs?

#6

Post by TexasTornado »

Playing devils advocate a bit here, but it is possible that some business owner may be ok with OC but not CC. Think of it as big dogs vs small dogs. Both can bite, but with big dogs, you see the teeth. Removing the "element of surprise" mentioned in other threads may actually make some people more comfortable with having weapons in their place of business because they will know who is carrying and who is not.
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Re: Why two signs?

#7

Post by adl713 »

Question:

If there is only a valid 30.06 sign posted, is open carry still permissible on the premises? Going further, by not posting a valid 30.07 sign has the owner invalidated their 30.06 signage?
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Re: Why two signs?

#8

Post by TexasTornado »

adl713 wrote:Question:

If there is only a valid 30.06 sign posted, is open carry still permissible on the premises? Going further, by not posting a valid 30.07 sign has the owner invalidated their 30.06 signage?
The two signs are completely independent of one another. 30.06 only covers concealed carry while 30.07 only covers open.

If the 30.06 is the only one posted, legally you may open carry on the premises; however, more than likely you will be given a verbal notice that carry is not permitted.
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Re: Why two signs?

#9

Post by adl713 »

Thanks. Perhaps one could then discretely open carry, i.e. not visible enough to attract attention.
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Re: Why two signs?

#10

Post by mojo84 »

Some folks are less concerned about the gun they can see than the gun they can not.
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Re: Why two signs?

#11

Post by Bitter Clinger »

TexasTornado wrote:
adl713 wrote:Question:

If there is only a valid 30.06 sign posted, is open carry still permissible on the premises? Going further, by not posting a valid 30.07 sign has the owner invalidated their 30.06 signage?
The two signs are completely independent of one another. 30.06 only covers concealed carry while 30.07 only covers open.

If the 30.06 is the only one posted, legally you may open carry on the premises; however, more than likely you will be given a verbal notice that carry is not permitted.
The two "Bitter Clingers" are completely independent of one another as well :cheers2:

In the interest of full disclosure, the OP did register the name before I did, and I did not search to see if there was anyone who had already claimed it. I will leave it up to the moderators to tell me if there is a need for me to change my handle.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Why two signs?

#12

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

If I owned a retail business, I would be much more likely to have a problem with CC than with OC. I believe this was the prevailing view back when everyone carried. It was considered a bit "sneaky" and potentially nefarious to conceal your firearm.

I know that if I am in an altercation with someone I would much rather know right at the start whether or not they have any weapons on them, and I would adjust my approach accordingly.

That's why this outcry against OC is so crazy. Don't the gun haters understand that a criminal is much more likely to conceal their gun right up until the moment they stick it in your face and demand your money (or worse)? Having people OC'ing around you only minimizes the risk of harm to you and your family. It is a great deterrent to criminals, who tend to be dumb, but are also likely to pick the easiest target around.
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Re: Why two signs?

#13

Post by AJSully421 »

Abraham wrote:Some of the difficult want to prove their insistent point by OCing in a 30.06 business.

To me, OCing when the 30.06 posted business obviously doesn't want guns on their property begs alienating these businesses.

I can see LEO's being called and you may or not take a ride. Do you really want to take that risk?

In an earlier thread, I made this same point.

Don't be an idiot and OC in a 30.06 posted business.

While I understand exactly what you are saying, I did hear from one of my Group Medical Insurance clients (small mom & pop tire shop in a small town) that they posted 30.06 and not 30.07 because they wanted to know who was in their store armed. Seems weird, especially since the bad guys are going to illegally conceal anyhow, but that was their reason.

So, in at least one case, it would be OK... but you are right, 99.9% of the time you will be verbally notified for OCing past a 30.06.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964

30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.

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Re: Why two signs?

#14

Post by baldeagle »

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If I owned a retail business, I would be much more likely to have a problem with CC than with OC. I believe this was the prevailing view back when everyone carried. It was considered a bit "sneaky" and potentially nefarious to conceal your firearm.

I know that if I am in an altercation with someone I would much rather know right at the start whether or not they have any weapons on them, and I would adjust my approach accordingly.

That's why this outcry against OC is so crazy. Don't the gun haters understand that a criminal is much more likely to conceal their gun right up until the moment they stick it in your face and demand your money (or worse)? Having people OC'ing around you only minimizes the risk of harm to you and your family. It is a great deterrent to criminals, who tend to be dumb, but are also likely to pick the easiest target around.
For a long time in this country concealed carry was considered something that bad people do. In fact it was illegal in many places for that very reason. Then things changed, and open carry became illegal too, in some places (most relevantly here in Texas). It was considered OK to have a rifle holstered on your horse (after all, it was the wild west), but you could not carry a handgun at all.

Legal concealed carry is a "modern" invention with the exception of a few states like Vermont, where it's always been legal. The first state to pass a "modern" concealed carry law was Indiana (1980). Gradually other states began adopting them until now it's legal in all 50 states (but in may issue states it's very hard to get a license.)

In order to understand what's going on in other people's minds, you have to step out of yours. You are aware of guns, know how they work, understand that they are not a threat unless deployed by a threatening person. The average person knows very little about guns what they do know is false. That's why you can have people screaming that we should take automatic weapons off the streets when anyone with a modicum of knowledge knows that was done in 1934. When the media reports that a gun went off, I cringe. Guns don't "go off". They are shot. But Joe Bob, who doesn't know anything at all about guns, thinks they can go off - just spontaneously fire and hurt people. Every time some irresponsible gun owner has a negligent discharge, that just reinforces that false belief.

The media works overtime to ensure that gun knowledge is not disseminated, that fear of guns is implanted in everyone's minds, and that getting rid of guns is the solution to violence. The fact that violence preceded the invention of the gun doesn't deter them from spreading their gospel. So for most people seeing a gun is frightening, and not seeing a gun is comforting.
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Re: Why two signs?

#15

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Bitter Clinger wrote:
TexasTornado wrote:
adl713 wrote:Question:

If there is only a valid 30.06 sign posted, is open carry still permissible on the premises? Going further, by not posting a valid 30.07 sign has the owner invalidated their 30.06 signage?
The two signs are completely independent of one another. 30.06 only covers concealed carry while 30.07 only covers open.

If the 30.06 is the only one posted, legally you may open carry on the premises; however, more than likely you will be given a verbal notice that carry is not permitted.
The two "Bitter Clingers" are completely independent of one another as well :cheers2:

In the interest of full disclosure, the OP did register the name before I did, and I did not search to see if there was anyone who had already claimed it. I will leave it up to the moderators to tell me if there is a need for me to change my handle.
That's up to you, but since the other bitterclinger has posted something that only Bloomberg could love, you may want to change your username. When I read the OP's post, I thought it was you and wondered what in the world had gotten into you!

Chas.
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