Why not here?

[Venus Pax]

The article in this thread http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=9471 got me thinking about an e-mail I received from a friend. I have no way of determining whether it is true or false, but my knowledge of Baytown has me believing it certainly could be based in fact.

Here goes:
Letters to the Editor
>
>August 2, 2007
>
>EDITOR'S NOTE: Contrary to our policy, we are not publishing the name
>of the writer, a victim of a recent attack, to protect his identity as
>he pursues charges against the assailants.
>
>A call to action
>
>This letter is a call to all residents of Baytown and the surrounding
>community to take issue with what we have let our city become. As a
>lifelong resident, self-employed and father with three children in
>Goose Creek schools, I am concerned and outraged that we, the citizens,

>do not protect our community and its integrity. We need to take back
>control of this community by raising our children to respect life and
>property and punish those who don't. I call upon you, the people of
>Baytown, to stand up, use your intellect and say enough is enough, our
>children do not need to grow up in this environment and I will not be a

>victim by taking back control of my community. My message is clear, my
>motivation justified so please read on.
>
>On Saturday night, my wife and I made plans to meet up with friends to
>catch up and enjoy a night out without the kids. We decided to stay in
>Baytown and go karaoke, when that was over we went to Barracuda Beach
>Club at Bayland Marina to meet others, but this is when our peaceful
>evening ended. After staying 30 minutes we decided it was time to go
>home. As we walked out the door, there was a large group of young
>people at the bottom of the stairs milling around in the parking lot,
>two men were walking through the crowd staring and yelling as people
>passed them, the others were calling for them to attack someone,
>anyone. One male, we will call him "Trouble" due to the words tattooed
>across his upper back, began to throw punches at someone in front of
>us. Another, walked by me with his fists clenched, he then began to
>chase after one man who was with us, punching and kicking him.
>
>There were no words exchanged with any of the people in this group or
>from the patrons leaving the establishment, these people were just
>looking for someone to take advantage of and inflict as much damage as
>they could, they were successful. I grabbed my wife, and the two other
>women with us and hurried them to the car, my friend that was being
>assaulted managed to open the door and get in but he could not unlock
>the doors for us since "Trouble" was trying to break the driver window
>to get to our friend and another was kicking the passenger door
>violently. I was stunned by the extreme violence, intensity and
>complete disregard for property and life these people showed.
>
>I was separated from my wife and the others while being attacked from
>all sides, as I reached our car, the two that were kicking the vehicle
>turned on me, as this happened I looked over to our other vehicle and a

>large man threw my wife on the hood and began swinging at her, throwing

>punches at a woman! She just asked why they were doing this and he
>attacked her. I picked her up and tried to get her into the other car
>but we were surrounded by at least 20 people, we had no idea who they
>were or where they came from. As we were rushing to get into the car, I

>was being punched from all sides and could do nothing but protect my
>wife and another woman by shielding them from the punches. If you have
>been attacked by hornets it was just like that, coming at you punching
>and then running away as another closes in to attack, and then another.

>Just as this was happening gunshots rang out from beside us. At this
>moment I threw my wife and another lady to the ground, as I turned
>around to open the car doors I saw a man running at me with his fist
>cocked, I woke up on my back with the mayhem above me wondering if my
>wife and friends were safe. As I stood again blood began to pour from
>my eye, and people were running away from us jumping in cars. It was
>over, almost a quickly as it began, a random act of violence, complete
>random. Both of our cars sustained damage from the men kicking in the
doors, and I was in pretty bad shape myself.
>
>As I got into our vehicle chaos was everywhere, I could not see because

>of my injury and was praying that no one in our group was a victim of
>those gunshots. If men are willing to attack women, then they must be
>capable of pointing that gun at someone and taking a life. As I was
>informed that the attackers were scattering and leaving I thought
>finally, its over, but this was only the beginning. Things couldn't get

>any worse, my wife was attacked, I was knocked unconscious and bleeding

>profusely, the police had been called, and we had license plates and
>descriptions of the vehicles the attackers were in. The police would
>have a lot to go on, at least we thought.
>
>Police and EMS arrived and the EMT began to help me immediately, others

>from our group gave the police a description of the attacker's vehicles

>and license plate numbers. I was fading in and out so I was not able to

>talk to the police officer, once they concluded the investigation, the
>Baytown officer gave me a case number and told me that there was
>probably nothing they could do. I asked him with license plate numbers,

>vehicle descriptions and knowing that someone fired a gun, why is there

>nothing they can do? He then looked at me and politely said, "you have
>a case number, but we do not have time to investigate further." At
>least he was courteous in telling me that I have now become a victim
>and deal with it because the police won't, they are too busy, too busy
>with what, to protect and serve the citizens that support your
community?
>
>As mentioned above, I am a lifelong resident of Baytown, professional,
>self-employed and my wife owns a successful business here. We have
>three children, all in the Goose Creek school system and when I visit
>their schools I see kids acting and dressing as the assailants that
attacked us.
>Our schools do not truly discipline the bad because they are weary of
>litigation. People who grew up in Baytown remember when you could go
>out after dark and feel safe, now everywhere you go all you see are
"thugs,"
>young kids that think it is cool to be a criminal and not contribute to

>your community. I am not asking for vigilante justice but I am calling
>on all of you, citizens, parents, humans to stand up, do not let this
>element turn our city into another statistic or another community that
>failed to hold on to its past and still move into the future.
>
>It seems that there is no place to go on the weekend, I cannot take my
>kids to the mall on Friday or Saturday evening because of the
>disrespectful kids that are hanging around, there is not a clean safe
>bar to meet with friends the only places to go are restaurants. I
>always hear friends and acquaintances say they are going to Houston or
>Clear Lake to dine and shop, why is this? It is because we have not
>taken care in our own community and we would rather take our money to a

>place that provides options without sacrificing safety and atmosphere.
>Is this the future of Baytown we want, kids that grow up to become
>criminals and burdens on society and a threat to your safety, a
>community people drive through on their way to a cleaner, safer
>location? If New York City was able to clean up its streets, why can't
Baytown?
>
>Thank you for taking time to read this letter, I hope it inspires you
>to not be afraid and stand up to these criminals. Communities around
>the country have the same issues but band together to push these
>elements out and create a safe, clean city with parks and greenbelt to
>enjoy by all. Why can't we do the same, there is always safety in
>numbers and we have far more good citizens than bad, so stand up, know
>where your kids are and whom they are with. You are not just raising
>your children you are raising the future of our community so teach them

>respect for life and property and it is their duty to protect and
foster their community.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Citizen of Baytown

What would be the problem of armed Baytown citizens patrolling its neighborhoods? This could be an answer to the problem there. In my experience, bullies are usually cowards. The Pennsylvania neighborhood's approach might work in Baytown.

Baytown people, what do you think?

[GKings1]

Whether the events happened as written, I do not know; however, the letter was published by the The Baytown Sun on August 2, 2007. http://baytownsun.com/story.lasso?ewcd=05ceab2c2a478401

This story and others serve to confirm my decision to carry, I just wish that I could carry at my work place.

[JRG]

Sounds like the people that got attacked need to take the CHL class and take their lives and safety back!!

I grew up in Baytown and left there in the late 1970's, it was not that way then.

Joe

[GlockenHammer]

What would be the problem of armed Baytown citizens patrolling its neighborhoods? This could be an answer to the problem there. In my experience, bullies are usually cowards. The Pennsylvania neighborhood's approach might work in Baytown.

Baytown people, what do you think?

I am not a Baytown resident, but I would like to offer my thoughts on your question....

As citizens, a portion of our taxes are supposed to pay professionals to do this for us. However, if that system is failing, I believe the citizens do have the rights to do as you say...with limitations.

Due to the nature of this threat (large group, random violence), it will appear (and probably be true) that your citizen group will seek out this violent gang. What follows must undoubtedly be a confrontation. It would be best if the professionals were called in to have this confrontation as they have more training, equipment and authority than you, but that may not be possible. So now you have a confrontation between armed citizens who have sought out a group of thugs. I don't expect things to go well from here. But then again, the situation isn't good now.

I applaud you for being willing to take action. Just think carefully through what situations you may create and how they may turn out, including some worst case scenarios. Are you willing to live with them?

[WarHawk-AVG]

Would you have been able to apply DF in that situation?

They were attacking them with thier fists...now the sheer numbers could have met the 3 requirements for the use of DF

Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy

Something like this worries me...if you draw, would you be held accountable in a court of LAW??

Discuss

[WarHawk-AVG]

I would have used DF in that situation I believe..deep in my gut the three rules where met

Ability - They were much younger attacking both men and women

Opportunity - They were already attacking them

Jeopardy - The large number of them were overwhelming odds

But what do you do...blindly fire in the croud? Target one attacking the woman?

I am lost, I hope and pray to God I would have made the correct decision, spending many years in jail for defending someones life

What would you have done?

[Venus Pax]

I applaud you for being willing to take action. Just think carefully through what situations you may create and how they may turn out, including some worst case scenarios. Are you willing to live with them?

Since I do not live in Baytown, I would not put myself in a citizens' patrol in that city. (Now if it were my own community of residence, I would accept the right/responsibility more.) I do, however, teach in the school district that serves the Baytown community. I see a lot of students glorifying criminal activity, and I hear of it happening in the evenings and weekends. I also see that students not glorifying the criminal activity are very intimidated by those that are; it affects these students on many levels.

For awhile, males in late adolescence in Baytown and Highlands were the target of sexual assault and robbery for quite awhile; finally the BG was caught.

I wrote this thread to see how some of our Baytown posters feel about patrolling their own neighborhoods in a more proactive role. I wouldn't want to see them involving themselves in any type of revenge activities, simply the type of activity we read about in the Pennsylvania article.

[WarHawk-AVG]

I applaud you for being willing to take action. Just think carefully through what situations you may create and how they may turn out, including some worst case scenarios. Are you willing to live with them?

Since I do not live in Baytown, I would not put myself in a citizens' patrol in that city. (Now if it were my own community of residence, I would accept the right/responsibility more.) I do, however, teach in the school district that serves the Baytown community. I see a lot of students glorifying criminal activity, and I hear of it happening in the evenings and weekends. I also see that students not glorifying the criminal activity are very intimidated by those that are; it affects these students on many levels.

For awhile, males in late adolescence in Baytown and Highlands were the target of sexual assault and robbery for quite awhile; finally the BG was caught.

I wrote this thread to see how some of our Baytown posters feel about patrolling their own neighborhoods in a more proactive role. I wouldn't want to see them involving themselves in any type of revenge activities, simply the type of activity we read about in the Pennsylvania article.

I do live in Baytown...I'm asking because what WOULD YOU DO if you came upon a situation like this...and would it be justifiable in the use of DF? Baytown is RAPIDLY going downhill...I grew up here...the city is NOTHING like it used to be

I would NEVER go hunting or be a vigilante, I am saying..whatif you happened on something like this (fair chance it will happen again) WOULD DF be authorized and who would you target

[Venus Pax]

You're asking me personally?
I don't think it would be wise to say on a forum what I would do if faced with that exact scenario.

But I will say this: the Pennsylvania article gives me some evidence of what I have suspected all along--people with the willingness to protect themselves and their families who are actively patrolling their own neighborhoods, working with local LEOs, are preventing crime in their areas simply by their prescence.
I wouldn't recommend anyone jump into another person's battle, especially without training and knowledge of how to handle such things.
But I can see where a group of thugs might not find a neighborhood so desirable if groups of citizens patrolled the place, kept their eyes on everything, and would protect themselves with lethal force if necessary.

ETA: I'm not recommending jumping into a crime-in-progress. I'm thinking of a turbo-charged neighborhood watch program.
I hope my post is making more sense.

[CHLSteve]

I thought you all were making plans for a TexasShooting.com karaoke night in Baytown. But then again, I'm not a very good singer anyway.

On a more serious note, although I think this situation would definitely meet the requirements for DF, it seems to me that it might be an even more dangerous move to produce your weapon. It didn't sound like the man who wrote the letter ever had control of the situation, and I think he could have been easily overwhelmed by the number of attackers. I'm glad that everyone escaped with their lives in tact.

[WarHawk-AVG]

Ok fine Venus Pax, not you personally

In "gereral" if you were pulling up in your car, and parked down the parkinglot then got out, and saw this going on would DF be authorized?

I am just looking for awnsers..situation like these are unsettling to me

Do you help, or get in your car and hope a fellow citizen isn't killed

[Xander]

In "gereral" if you were pulling up in your car, and parked down the parkinglot then got out, and saw this going on would DF be authorized?

If you saw this happening, and had no idea who any of the combatants were? That could be a sticky situation. I'd suggest you read this article, and then come to a conclusion as to what you personally are comfortable with in that situation.

As to general force vs. deadly force questions....I'd *strongly* suggest you sit in on one of Charles Cotton's Deadly Force seminars, if you get the chance.

[WarHawk-AVG]

WOW!

I just don't know...I guess the last line of the whole thing sums it up

Again, we need to avoid rushing in where Angels fear to tread. Remember the most endangered species is good guys and gals. Go with God.

Just walk away with a tear in your eye

[Xander]

WOW!

I just don't know...I guess the last line of the whole thing sums it up

Again, we need to avoid rushing in where Angels fear to tread. Remember the most endangered species is good guys and gals. Go with God.

Just walk away with a tear in your eye

Not necessarily walk away...Call 911. Yell at them to stop. Honk your horn. Let them know loud and clear that the cops are on the way. There is plenty that you can do without going in with guns-a-blazing. Remember, as the LawDog says, your gun is just a tool. The only real weapon you have is the one between your ears.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Ok fine Venus Pax, not you personally

In "gereral" if you were pulling up in your car, and parked down the parkinglot then got out, and saw this going on would DF be authorized?

I am just looking for awnsers..situation like these are unsettling to me

Do you help, or get in your car and hope a fellow citizen isn't killed

You have to ask yourself, "What are the chances of success?", and, "What's the downside?" It's possible that a single person escalating to DF could make a bad situation worse.

Just about all of the choices here are bad ones. I would probably call the cops and hope for the best.