I don't agree with the charges being filed against this officer, assuming his story is correct. To the LEO's on the board, was the officer following procedure by drawing on the suspect after he repeatedly ignored commands? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... d0806.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jones, 42, was expected to turn himself in at the Dallas County jail. He told police investigators that he ordered a man who was urinating on a wall at an apartment complex on Washington Avenue in Old East Dallas to stop. He said that when the man didn’t follow his commands, and after he identified himself as a police officer, he drew his weapon and ordered Brandon Schroder, 23, to his knees.
The decision by prosecutors to pursue criminal charges against Jones immediately riled officers throughout the Dallas Police Department, with many saying Jones was being punished for simply doing his job.
Aggie_engr wrote:I don't agree with the charges being filed against this officer, assuming his story is correct. To the LEO's on the board, was the officer following procedure by drawing on the suspect after he repeatedly ignored commands? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... d0806.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jones, 42, was expected to turn himself in at the Dallas County jail. He told police investigators that he ordered a man who was urinating on a wall at an apartment complex on Washington Avenue in Old East Dallas to stop. He said that when the man didn’t follow his commands, and after he identified himself as a police officer, he drew his weapon and ordered Brandon Schroder, 23, to his knees.
The decision by prosecutors to pursue criminal charges against Jones immediately riled officers throughout the Dallas Police Department, with many saying Jones was being punished for simply doing his job.
The facts around this incident are somewhat murky, and according to reports on this evening's news the officer involved has a checkered history with the department. I think a "wait and see" approach would be preferable to passing judgment at this point.
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
ordering a violator to his knees or even to make him lie face-down is standard police procedure for controlling a suspect.
Both are also positions a victim is frequently forced to assume prior to their execution. The degree of force must correspond to the nature of a offense. In this case, the amount of force, pulling a gun on a guy wetting a wall, was blatantly unreasonable. A command at gunpoint from a guy in civies to get on one's knees or lay face down on the ground is even more alarming. Hate to say it, but cop Jones got off light. The suspect could have legally defended himself in this instance. When you're off duty, be off except for major developments. Let the small stuff go. To the uniforms.
casingpoint wrote: The degree of force must correspond to the nature of a offense. In this case, the amount of force, pulling a gun on a guy wetting a wall, was blatantly unreasonable. A command at gunpoint from a guy in civies to get on one's knees or lay face down on the ground is even more alarming. Hate to say it, but cop Jones got off light..
Non-LEO here, but I tend to agree with the above.
The original story states that the officer commanded the guy to "stop" as in to stop urinating. This might be easier said than done if the guy was, ahem midstream. That coupled with the fact that the officer was in plainclothes could very well be why the officer was ignored. But, draw down on a guy for taking a whizz? He probably couldn't stop at THAT point if he had to!
What's next for officer Jones? Draw down on a group of kids that don't recognize him in plainclothes and therefore ignore him as he attempts to issue MIPs?
Maybe he thought he was from the house of Joabam, 1 Kings 14:10...KJV of course.
I Thess 5:21
Disclaimer: IANAL, IANYL, IDNPOOTV, IDNSIAHIE and IANROFL
"There is no situation so bad that you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield, NASA ISS Astronaut
I Thess 5:21
Disclaimer: IANAL, IANYL, IDNPOOTV, IDNSIAHIE and IANROFL
"There is no situation so bad that you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield, NASA ISS Astronaut
Cops out of uniform are very, very hard to positively identify as cops. Out of uniform cops have even shot one another on occasion, or have been shot by uniformed officers.
Pulling a gun on a guy - threatening use of deadly force - for relieving himself on a wall OUGHT to merit stern disciplinary action, as well as an inquiry into whether or not the officer should be allowed to remain on the force.
The charges - a Class A misdemeanor - really don't seem out of line.
Original CHL: 2000: 56 day turnaround
1st renewal, 2004: 34 days
2nd renewal, 2008: 81 days
3rd renewal, 2013: 12 days
The guy didn't draw his weapon on someone who was urinating on a wall because he was urinating on a wall. He drew on him because he was ignoring the verbal commands of a police officer. I understand the guy could not stop his actions at the time, however he could have acknowledged the officers presence and said that he could not have stopped etc. Most people didn't have a problem with one of our members here drawing a weapon on a guy that jumped out of car and "put his hands up like he wanted to give me a hug". Did we know what that guy was up to? Heck no. He could have been an over zealous Christian trying to spread the word and didn't realize his actions seemed inappropriate.
However this guy IDed himself as an officer and then for reasons not fully explained in the article decided to use a show of force to effect compliance with his suspect. I'm sure if he'd had a Taser he would have drawn that. It's not easy getting on Dallas PD. They are a major city with a major city's hiring policies and they don't take just anyone. So I'm now wondering if it was something more like he told him to stop the not only didn't but verbally replied in a derogatory manner that he would not and tried to leave the area. Was it too aggressive? Probably. Was it illegal? I don't think so.
The problem this will have is that Police officers will be more apprehensive to draw their weapon. We don't know if the officer in question observed any kind of furtive movement or aggressive stance from the guy, if the guy was drunk, if he was trying to leave the area, or what. For all we know he was a drunk 6'7" 400 lbs line backer who told the officer to buzz off. Whether he heard the officer ID himself or not is irrelevant. If he did he did.
This whole thing about being in street clothes is silly too. Cops have to take off their uniform but their duty doesn't allow them to stop being a cop. I've hooked people up in street clothes and at no time did I feel it necessary to call for a uniformed officer. I handled my business!
In my opinion this guy did what he felt was necessary to control his suspect. Oh and for those that would say it was only a ticket. How many pursuits, that end in an officer having to use deadly force, start from a simple traffic ticket? It's something like 80%. As a police officer you can't just not use force when a suspect is non-compliant, because he is only doing something minor. How would they enforce anything. if they see some guy litter are they supposed to just let him go on by when they say stop and he doesn't? NO! It is in his policy, I guarantee, that he is to control his scene and his suspect AT ALL TIMES. To be effective this must happen.
I'm betting this guy was not just saying "Officer I can't stop, but I am trying to comply with you and will not leave once I am done." He wouldn't have a pistol drawn on him. Maybe I'm just sticking up for him because he's a cop, and I'm partial, but I don't see how he acted in an illegal manner.
My posts on this website are worth every cent you paid me for them.
You're drunk, your in the middle of "That Act" some guy approaches you and starts barking orders. You are going to ignore him, more than likely.
I think the officer just got mad that the guy was ignoring him,ego tripped and drew down on him.
The DPD wouldn't suspend for no reason, remember this is the department that wouldn't suspend a couple of officers for driving drunk.
In Capitalism, Man exploits Man. In Communism, it's just the reverse
