Lost Values

[Keith B]

"Teaching a child that you can't trust police, that the military is not doing anything worthwhile, and other generalizations will unfortunately poison them into the belief that they are all bad."


As opposed to teaching them that you can always trust the police and should always tell the police everything? That is hardly advisable. I do not teach them to hate the police or to be disrespectful, but if they think the police man is "mad" at them (the only way a 8 year old understands trouble) that they are to be quiet, still, and ask for me and my husband. Perhaps all you have is officer friendly where you live...that is great...but that is not the case in many places.

Not sure where you got that about the military. I think our military men are our best and brightest. I also think they are being set up for murder by the rules of engagement in Afghanistan and have routinely been sacrificed so that a politician can get points. Not ok by me. I hate politicians and distrust them entirely. I love our fighting men.

I don't trust and "hope" that people will do the right thing anymore. I know at least three people who have cooled their heels in jail because they "hoped" someone would do the right thing. Instead someone got a burr in their bonnet and chose to nail them to the wall because a law was clumsily worded and they could do so. Watching my friends get abused by the system and one of them lose their conceal carry permit because they transferred a gun from their glove box to their holster where a school bus could see it (not on school grounds) has made me jaded.

You live in TX, things are better still there the last time I was there (two years ago). Things are much worse elsewhere.

Sounds like you need to move.

I don't disagree totally with you. You have to teach them caution with everything. However, teaching them that everything is bad is not a good thing either. Trust is a VERY important key to success in life. You must teach them how and when to trust. It is a fine line that changes with age and matureity. Teaching them to be cautious while being opptomistic is the key for a happier person IMO. Potentially making them afraid of their own shadow will not get them very far in life.

[Oldgringo]

When one reads through this thread, a second or third time, there is not a lot of disagreement herein. Just sayin'....

[mamabearCali]

Sounds like you need to move.

I don't disagree totally with you. You have to teach them caution with everything. However, teaching them that everything is bad is not a good thing either. Trust is a VERY important key to success in life. You must teach them how and when to trust. It is a fine line that changes with age and matureity. Teaching them to be cautious while being opptomistic is the key for a happier person IMO. Potentially making them afraid of their own shadow will not get them very far in life.

Give me half a chance and I am outta here. Tyler Texas is looking real good right now. However the stars would have to align and Chris would have to get a rocking job there to convince him to go. He is from NY so to him VA is a paradise.

Trust is important, but earned trust. If you met my kids you would know why I try to teach them some caution. They are 100% innocent, and honest, and have not one shred of skepticism to come to them naturally. Much their mother before them. They are some of the most friendly kids you have met. If you are behind us in line at the grocery store they will ask and help you put everything on the conveyor belt. If they see a woman pushing a large cart of feed at the feed store, they run over and help. All of that is great, but everyone is not nice. Not every person is kind. Not every authority figure is to be trusted. I am terribly afraid that while I had time to learn from other people experience the depths that some authority figures will go to, that the world is in such a state now that they might not have that time. So a little mommy caution and a little knowledge (at least in theory) that one must cautious I am hoping will help them.

[txglock21]

Sounds like you need to move.

I don't disagree totally with you. You have to teach them caution with everything. However, teaching them that everything is bad is not a good thing either. Trust is a VERY important key to success in life. You must teach them how and when to trust. It is a fine line that changes with age and matureity. Teaching them to be cautious while being opptomistic is the key for a happier person IMO. Potentially making them afraid of their own shadow will not get them very far in life.

Give me half a chance and I am outta here. Tyler Texas is looking real good right now. However the stars would have to align and Chris would have to get a rocking job there to convince him to go. He is from NY so to him VA is a paradise.

Trust is important, but earned trust. If you met my kids you would know why I try to teach them some caution. They are 100% innocent, and honest, and have not one shred of skepticism to come to them naturally. Much their mother before them. They are some of the most friendly kids you have met. If you are behind us in line at the grocery store they will ask and help you put everything on the conveyor belt. If they see a woman pushing a large cart of feed at the feed store, they run over and help. All of that is great, but everyone is not nice. Not every person is kind. Not every authority figure is to be trusted. I am terribly afraid that while I had time to learn from other people experience the depths that some authority figures will go to, that the world is in such a state now that they might not have that time. So a little mommy caution and a little knowledge (at least in theory) that one must cautious I am hoping will help them.

First of all, I personally would never tell another parent how they should raise there child(ren) as long as they are trying to teach them right from wrong. In my experience, we do the best we can and hope we raise good, moral adults. They don't always agree with us and even the best parents can end up with troubled young adults. My 21 year old son is still "finding himself" as my wife likes to say. While my 25 year old daughter is happily married and a great mother of my first grandchild.

Second, Texas is by no means perfect, but I have been to almost all 50 states and several countries and Texas is like the ad says, "Like a whole other country". I wish it was! I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[VMI77]

I teach my children to respect authority, do the right thing, be honest, have integrity and always remember their rights. My daughter is intent on joining the military this week and we can't be more proud of her.

If I were going to teach them to not trust a profession it sure wouldn't be the police.

It's not so much a matter of trust as a matter of self-preservation. It doesn't matter if you can trust the police because the courts and corrupt prosecutors are going to use what you say against you if you open your mouth. The SC has made it very dangerous to say anything to the police by it's decision that not invoking the right to silence at the beginning of a contact essentially invalidates it if invoked later on and is grounds for probable cause. It also doesn't make any difference if only one in a hundred is a bad apple because there is no way of knowing if you're facing the one bad apple. So again, the cost of opening your mouth can be quite high. And then there's the fact that the police can and do lie but if a citizen lies he's toast. Lying is part of police interrogation tactics. You can simply make a mistake in answering even an innocuous question, such as "were you in Houston four days ago" with a no, and if later it turns out that you were indeed in Houston four days ago, but you miscounted and thought it was five when you answered you're now charged with lying. Even if you not charged with lying, a prosecutor can use it to undermine your defense by making you into a liar.

Now, if I'm stopped for a traffic infraction, I will answer all relevant questions. However, because of that recent SC decision, if I'm stopped for anything that looks like an interrogation or questions that suggest the police might be looking at me as a suspect, I'm immediately invoking my 5th amendment rights and asking for my attorney. That's the climate the courts have created and talking can go against you even if the officer you're talking too is completely honest and of the highest integrity.

[VMI77]

Methinks mamabearCali is packing cynicism way beyond her years. Granted, we may not be the country, or the people, we once were but we're still better than anyplace else I can think of.

A young engineer, once in my charge, made a lasting statement when he said, "...if everything stinks, you might ought to check your nose...". Well stated, Winston.

I think she's right on. And while the country may still be better than any other, that's not much of a standard, when comparable countries are sinking as fast or faster than we are, and all the others are already much worse.

[VMI77]

This, as Keith said, was filmed at a time when a very unpopular war was going on. When we came back we were spit on, called baby killers, and in a whole, shunned by a large part of out nation when all we did is what many thousands of troops have done for our country in the last 250 years. Following orders. Did I agree, no. Did I want to be there, NO. But I was and so were a lot of other men. Some of which gave the ultimate for this country.
With that, I still believe in our country. Yes, it has a lot wrong with it that is caused by those in Washington. But the only way it will change is to raise our kids with moral and ethical values so that some day they can take over the reigns and get those that are only in it for themselves out of office. That is what I have tried to do with my kids and now working on the grand kids.
The Duke had it right

I wish I could be optimistic like you, but I just see no reason at all for optimism. America is over. We're now living in Amerika. We're beyond the point of voting our way out of anything. In fact, at the rate we're importing more Democratic voters, facilitated by treasonous Republicans, voting may well bring us to the abyss even before the economy is flushed down the toilet.

[VMI77]

Sounds like you need to move.

I don't disagree totally with you. You have to teach them caution with everything. However, teaching them that everything is bad is not a good thing either. Trust is a VERY important key to success in life. You must teach them how and when to trust. It is a fine line that changes with age and matureity. Teaching them to be cautious while being opptomistic is the key for a happier person IMO. Potentially making them afraid of their own shadow will not get them very far in life.

Give me half a chance and I am outta here. Tyler Texas is looking real good right now. However the stars would have to align and Chris would have to get a rocking job there to convince him to go. He is from NY so to him VA is a paradise.

Trust is important, but earned trust. If you met my kids you would know why I try to teach them some caution. They are 100% innocent, and honest, and have not one shred of skepticism to come to them naturally. Much their mother before them. They are some of the most friendly kids you have met. If you are behind us in line at the grocery store they will ask and help you put everything on the conveyor belt. If they see a woman pushing a large cart of feed at the feed store, they run over and help. All of that is great, but everyone is not nice. Not every person is kind. Not every authority figure is to be trusted. I am terribly afraid that while I had time to learn from other people experience the depths that some authority figures will go to, that the world is in such a state now that they might not have that time. So a little mommy caution and a little knowledge (at least in theory) that one must cautious I am hoping will help them.

They sound like our kids, and in fact, like just about every homeschooled kid I've ever met. They're that way because they have good parents who took them out the the public school system.

[cb1000rider]

Joker,
IMHO, the police are probably some of the most powerful people in the USA. Why? Because for the vast majority of people who can't afford substantial legal resources, their ability to get justice, expose repression, and just generally get a fair shake is non-existent. They are what the police say they are. Prosecutors believe them by default. And this whole "innocent til proven guilty" thing really isn't reality. Go to court your word versus a LEOs word and more than 50% of the time, you're going to lose.

I'm with you that the vast majority don't cause issues... But if it's 10% or even 1%, the chances are that some day you're going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time during your lifetime. I'll bet that even you've observed that some LEOs "get away" with more when dealing with the young and the obviously less-financially-fortunate.

LEOs, like it or not, are a privileged class. The rules aren't the same and if they're somehow involved in a non-on-duty incident, they're given a higher weight. That privilege comes at a cost, of course, and for some, it's the ultimate cost...

The only person who is advantaged through answering of a LEOs questions is the LEO. And having that conversation can lead to all sorts of trouble. If you want to search my car, the worst thing I can do is talk to you. I can't deny you probably cause, but I sure can get you closer through any statement I might make. And yea, it shouldn't matter if I'm not hiding anything, but it still matters to me.

Doing anything other than invoking that right to stay silent is an exercise in putting yourself at risk, unless you're anything other than a witness to a crime. I'm not indicating that you shouldn't be a good witness, I'm just saying that the best thing I can do if I'm stopped, questioned, or peak an officer's interest is be respectful, answer the questions that I have to answer, and politely invoke a right to remain silent. I'll teach my kids the same.

[The Annoyed Man]

Let me say first that, generally speaking, I am inclined to cooperate with police in most situations. I recognize that A) they're in good faith trying to serve the city I live in, and B) I'm not likely to be the subject of their inquiries. That said, here is some very good advice, from both an attorney, AND from a cop, as to why you should not willingly talk to the police:

[youtube][/youtube]

The cop's part begins about half way through. He and the attorney agree, and for the same reasons. It is sobering.

[VMI77]

And yea, it shouldn't matter if I'm not hiding anything, but it still matters to me.

I'm going to have to call you wrong on this one for several reasons:

1. You have the right to be left alone if you haven't done anything wrong.
2. Your time is valuable, and belongs to you, not the government.
3. They may very well damage your vehicle in a search. When my son went to the police academy the instructor told them that they should never consent to a search, especially by the DPS, because they may well tear your car apart.
4. There are corrupt officers out there.....doesn't matter if it's only 1%....we have no idea if the one asking is one of them. When you allow a search you're allowing a better opportunity to plant evidence. This happened to my brother-in-law, but fortunately for him it was a minor offense.
5. If anyone else has ever used your car you don't know if you have anything illegal in it.
6. Practically everything in this country can be considered illegal in this country and there are many laws on the books we don't even know about. They might find something that violates one of these laws and you didn't even know was illegal.
7. You also don't know if a personal enemy has planted something in or around your vehicle.

[mud farmer]

Instead of teaching my children about officer friendly I have to teach them that if they ever think a policeman is angry at them or that they are in trouble, they are to sit still, tell the LEO my name and ask for me or my husband and not say anything else, because police are permitted to lie to my children.

That's good advice. Any company, agency or other organization whose rules allow them to lie to you is not a group you can trust, according to their own rules. It's even worse with the organizations whose rules allow them to lie to others but will punish others who lie to them. Add the disparity of power between adults and children, even when the adults are not authority figures, and you have a situation that's ripe for abuse.

[Oldgringo]

Methinks mamabearCali is packing cynicism way beyond her years. Granted, we may not be the country, or the people, we once were but we're still better than anyplace else I can think of.

A young engineer, once in my charge, made a lasting statement when he said, "...if everything stinks, you might ought to check your nose...". Well stated, Winston.

I think she's right on. And while the country may still be better than any other, that's not much of a standard, when comparable countries are sinking as fast or faster than we are, and all the others are already much worse.

I didn't say she was wrong......

[carlson1]

Let me say first that, generally speaking, I am inclined to cooperate with police in most situations. I recognize that A) they're in good faith trying to serve the city I live in, and B) I'm not likely to be the subject of their inquiries. That said, here is some very good advice, from both an attorney, AND from a cop, as to why you should not willingly talk to the police:

[youtube][/youtube]

The cop's part begins about half way through. He and the attorney agree, and for the same reasons. It is sobering.

Needs to be listened to and listened to.

[TomsTXCHL]

Needs to be listened to and listened to.

Though I think maybe once is enough for me [gulp]!

I may have missed it, but...what DOES ONE SAY when stopped for speeding and the officer asks "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Do we take the Fifth?