17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[philip964]

Fox News Sean Hannity has featured the story including two cute lawyers sparing over the issue. I won't say they threw Zimmerman under the bus, but they did try and give a fair and balanced report.

However, Licensed Concealed Handgun Permit was mentioned.

The governor has apparently appointed a special group to investigate.

They played a recording of the 911 call of some one screaming and then the shot rings out. Sounds like the FBI is going to do some kind of analysis. Played the call to the local police from Zimmerman, where he describes the situation. He seems pretty calm at that point.

I betcha if someone with a CHL shoots someone in the US again, irregardless of the situation, the police will arrest the person. I suspect police chiefs do not like to go on suspension. I suspect we will be posting on this one for a very long time.

I really hope they did a good job on the autopsy and have bullet trajectories etc. etc.

[mamabearCali]

Man this situation stinks on ie for all of us.

[baldeagle]

Uh Oh....this is not good news for the Zimmerman camp....witness says she is 99% sure the screams for help were coming from the boy and a few other interesting statements. Check it out if you like.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/intervi ... ing/vGYPW/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Jusster

They didn't even come out of the house until after the shot was fired, yet she states that "the little boy" wasn't even struggling. How could she know that since she saw nothing until after Trayvon was shot? She is clearly a biased witness. I'm not saying what Zimmerman did was right or not, but this witness is not reliable. The reporter doesn't help by clearly asking the witness to speculate on what took place.

[baldeagle]

We're all on this forum because we have CHLs. Many of us carry all the time, whenever we can. I certainly do. I don't need anyone to answer this. Just think about it for a second. (Of course I know some will answer, and that's fine.)

Let's say you're Zimmerman. You have a CHL. You're armed. You're patrolling the neighborhood. You see me, and you think I'm suspicious looking. I'm also armed. I also have a CHL. You follow me. After a short while, I turn and approach you to see what I think you might be up to. After a short analysis, I decide to walk away. You continue to follow me. I duck into an area where I know you can't follow me. To my surprise and alarm, you get out of your car and continue to follow me. My alarm bells go way up. I start running, hoping I can lose you. To my chagrin, you are keeping up. Now I have a dilemma. Do I stop and stand my ground? I decide that's my only course of action. You approach me, yelling, asking me what I"m doing. By this time, I am prepared to draw and fire if you come any closer. You continue to approach me.

After the shooting, I explain to the police why I felt I had no other course of action. You, however, can't explain, because you're dead.

From this perspective, it was your own foolish decisions that got you in trouble and then dead. And I am perfectly justified in shooting you, because you were a threat that wouldn't go away. I took several reasonable precautions in my attempts to create distance between us, but you were aggressive and persistent.

So, was what Zimmerman did right? And would Trayvon have not been justified in fighting him or punching him in the nose? Who really was the aggressor?

There are some sobering thoughts here. Don't play police man. It could get you killed. Don't make aggressive moves toward another person (or even moves that appear to be aggressive.) It could get you shot. You don't know who's armed and who isn't. Seek always to deescalate whenever possible. Escalation can only lead to violence. Avoid confrontation. It could be your last day on earth.

[jmra]

Opened my CNN mobile app a few minutes ago - 7 of the 10 stories on the Headlines tab were about this shooting. Z is in deep kimchi. Given the publicity, not sure how you ever put a 12 person panel together that hasn't already formed an opinion on his guilt or innocence.

[Heartland Patriot]

We're all on this forum because we have CHLs. Many of us carry all the time, whenever we can. I certainly do. I don't need anyone to answer this. Just think about it for a second. (Of course I know some will answer, and that's fine.)

Let's say you're Zimmerman. You have a CHL. You're armed. You're patrolling the neighborhood. You see me, and you think I'm suspicious looking. I'm also armed. I also have a CHL. You follow me. After a short while, I turn and approach you to see what I think you might be up to. After a short analysis, I decide to walk away. You continue to follow me. I duck into an area where I know you can't follow me. To my surprise and alarm, you get out of your car and continue to follow me. My alarm bells go way up. I start running, hoping I can lose you. To my chagrin, you are keeping up. Now I have a dilemma. Do I stop and stand my ground? I decide that's my only course of action. You approach me, yelling, asking me what I"m doing. By this time, I am prepared to draw and fire if you come any closer. You continue to approach me.

After the shooting, I explain to the police why I felt I had no other course of action. You, however, can't explain, because you're dead.

From this perspective, it was your own foolish decisions that got you in trouble and then dead. And I am perfectly justified in shooting you, because you were a threat that wouldn't go away. I took several reasonable precautions in my attempts to create distance between us, but you were aggressive and persistent.

So, was what Zimmerman did right? And would Trayvon have not been justified in fighting him or punching him in the nose? Who really was the aggressor?

There are some sobering thoughts here. Don't play police man. It could get you killed. Don't make aggressive moves toward another person (or even moves that appear to be aggressive.) It could get you shot. You don't know who's armed and who isn't. Seek always to deescalate whenever possible. Escalation can only lead to violence. Avoid confrontation. It could be your last day on earth.

And there, highlighted in red, is where it makes the whole premise not applicable to me. I wouldn't follow you, simple as that. And don't think that I am simply saying that for the purpose of this posting; I really wouldn't follow you. That is not my job, I am not trained for that and my CHL is for the defense of myself, my loved ones/friends, and others as the seriousness of the situation may dictate, not "playing cops and robbers". To me, as much as I despise the leftist media pulling a "Rahm Emmanuel" on this one, that is where the now-likely-done-for Mr. Z messed up. LEOs are trained and paid to deal with "suspicious characters"; a neighborhood watch guy or gal most likely isn't.

[speedsix]

Uh Oh....this is not good news for the Zimmerman camp....witness says she is 99% sure the screams for help were coming from the boy and a few other interesting statements. Check it out if you like.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/intervi ... ing/vGYPW/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Jusster

They didn't even come out of the house until after the shot was fired, yet she states that "the little boy" wasn't even struggling. How could she know that since she saw nothing until after Trayvon was shot? She is clearly a biased witness. I'm not saying what Zimmerman did was right or not, but this witness is not reliable. The reporter doesn't help by clearly asking the witness to speculate on what took place.

...she's relating what she saw...and when she saw him, he wasn't struggling...and compared to the man sitting on him* "twice his size"
...he's a little boy...biased??? a good witness accurately reports his/her perceptions of what happened...and you're right...she speculated...after being asked to...

*reported on Fox interview...not here...

[A-R]

Bald eagle, great post

Good follow up by heartland patriot as well.

No question Zimmerman made egregious mistakes, very possibly to the point of a crime in itself (though I'm still not convinced of this legal theory myself that by merely following Martin and putting Martin in reasonable fear Zimmerman was committing "assault"). I believe strongly that if anyone had "stand your ground" rights in this situation it was likely Martin. But that's not the ONLY possible theory of what may have happened. Still waiting for complete reveal of evidence pointing one way or the other.

[57Coastie]

I must say that I am amused at all the legal experts here on this forum who have solved this case so quickly by remote control, and for whom the specifics of Florida law are clear and unarguable.

That being the case, why is it, acccording to the AP and the Houston Chronicle,, that the local police chief and the local DA have recused themselves, the governor has replaced the local DA with a special prosecutor and has appointed the lieutenant governor to head up an effort to determine whether or not Florida law needs amendment, and the DOJ has not yet sorted it out? It does not seem to be so clear and convincing to all of them yet.

http://www.chron.com/default/article/Ar ... 428919.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On this forum we could use a little more "in my opinion..." and a little less "it is a fact that...."

And that's a fact.

Jim

[speedsix]

...we're here for your viewing entertainment...glad you're so easily amused...

...our opinions are formed as the facts have been laid out to us...and that's the only way opinions are formed...as new and different facts might emerge...opinions might change...that's the way public forums work...

...hide and watch...and enjoy your popcorn...

[KingofChaos]

Bald eagle, great post

Good follow up by heartland patriot as well.

No question Zimmerman made egregious mistakes, very possibly to the point of a crime in itself (though I'm still not convinced of this legal theory myself that by merely following Martin and putting Martin in reasonable fear Zimmerman was committing "assault"). I believe strongly that if anyone had "stand your ground" rights in this situation it was likely Martin. But that's not the ONLY possible theory of what may have happened. Still waiting for complete reveal of evidence pointing one way or the other.

I'd have to agree with you

784.011 Assault.—
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 5, Feb. 10, 1832; RS 2400; GS 3226; RGS 5059; CGL 7161; s. 1, ch. 70-88; s. 729, ch 71-136; s. 17, ch. 74-383; s. 7, ch. 75-298; s. 171, ch. 91-224.
Note.—Former s. 784.02.

I don't think just following someone is a threat of violence. What say you guys?

[HerbM]

"just following someone" a threat of violence? Clearly NOT, but that word "just" is a really BIG word.

Context and the totality of the circumstance is the key. (Austin CHL holder to did this and killed the robber of his vehicle eventually was INDICATED, TRIED, but found not guilty).

Problem is that we don't have all of the known facts -- the full facts will likely never be known but I have been sifting the news reports to see what is and is not known.

Seldom is mentioned in news reports (Fox included, FL Congressman who proposed Stand Your Ground included) that the Police have reported: Zimmerman has grass stains on his back, a bleeding cut on his head, a bleeding nose.

Even this may not be true. The police may not have said that officially or they may not ever had determined these things to be true.

Apparently one of the (2?) 'witnesses' who says the youth was murdered has been disavowed by the police -- supposedly she was still inside when she heard the shots. I don't know.

Also, the police supposedly reported a (different) witness backing up the self-defense claim but that is less well confirmed and I am leaving that in the status of rumor as far a *I* know.

I do know, from doing the (Internet) research that almost no one knows even the facts as gathered by the police so far.

Is it a tragedy? Yes.

Is it bad for even those of us far removed? Yes, because the Brady Bunch and other gun controllers will use it no matter what the facts.

Does it give us more evidence that not one single major news source is reliable to get even the basic facts correct? You betcha!!!

I strongly SUSPECT is was a technically legal shooting, but also that it was incredibly stupid -- but at this point this is almost pure conjecture.

[speedsix]

...I've read the reports of the blood on the back of his head...nothing about a cut...and seen witnesses show on Fox how he first had his hands on the victim pressing down...then walked around with the hands on the back of his head...there're so many conflicting items...somebody's gotta be lying...

...but the undisputable facts(admitted to by Z):

1) he was acting as Neighborhood Watch..........by their rules, he had no business being armed
2) he followed and confronted the victim.........forbidden by their rules
3) he was told by the dispatcher not to follow the victim...and he chased him
4) everything that followed wouldn't have happened if he'd just picked up the phone and reported his suspicions and kept his nose out of police business...

...don't know the Florida law...but in the courtroom of common sense...he was the problem...

[baldeagle]

Zimmerman's father has released a statement. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loc ... 6605.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

[goose]

We're all on this forum because we have CHLs. Many of us carry all the time, whenever we can. I certainly do. I don't need anyone to answer this. Just think about it for a second. (Of course I know some will answer, and that's fine.)

An excellent post. This is the exact scenario I was thinking about but not getting articulated in my head. I am on the forum to learn and pre-think as much as possible. I appreciate your adding to that. Putting myself in both peoples shoes is a great way for me to analyze what I would have done.

Zimmerman’s side is easy. Call the police. Transfer absolutely as much information as possible and not escalate.

The other side is much more complex. For me, the most concerning part is figuring out when Zimmerman would have gone far enough for me to draw and fire. The point it drives home is that if a person wants to be overly assertive(?) and possibly give you no other outs, you have to figure out at what point you fear for your life. It may not be a knife being drawn. It may not be a ball bat. Can it be just a good sized dude that has no sense of personal space or respect for your liberties? On a dark, rainy night losing my ability to escape this person’s presence might begin to put fear into me relatively quickly.

The second scariest part is that cowboy/rent-a-cop/marginally-good-Samaritan/Zimmerman is probably already working on when he’ll draw. That puts me at a reaction time deficit if his fuse and or temper is shorter than it should be.