This is way to far TSA

[mamabearCali]

If conservative, liberal, everyone hates these procedures why are they being allowed to continue.

Because Federal bureaucracies of all stripe are NOT accountable to the people, even through our elected representatives. "They" have determined that they know what is best for us and there is no deterrence the zealotry.

VMI77 makes an excellent point that I really hadn't thought through completely. If there really was the potential for explosives, the current procedures put every TSA worker at risk for a premature detention.

The whole TSA strategy is cut from the same cloth as the school zero tolerance. Innocent kids are punished and there is little effect on the real problem with guns or drugs in schools. When a incident is discovered that strains even the wildest stretch of credibility, it is easy for those in charge to claim that it is "policy."

This is why I home school my kids and why we drive just about anywhere we need to go. Right now, at this moment, I can "opt out" of the system. What scares me the most is that the TSA wants to be just about everywhere and has gotten their tentacles into everything. They are reckless in everything they do, their searches and ague-ably assaults of the flying general public make no one safer. If you are really looking for bombs on a person's body do you want to do that in front of 100's/1000's of people in security lines with nothing but a rubber glove separating you from what might be a highly unstable item. They are searching passengers, but not cargo. Hello--if a person really wanted to take out a plane at 30,000 feet with the screening procedures in place today they would send the explosives by cargo--not by person. It is alarmingly reminiscent of the tactics of other brutal regimes through history and unless someone checks it we are in serious trouble here.

[Jeff Barriault]

After reading this I'm sitting here at my desk shaking my head in disbelief when a sickening realization just hit me. Al-Qaeda won and this is what they have reduced us to.

[chasfm11]

After reading this I'm sitting here at my desk shaking my head in disbelief when a sickening realization just hit me. Al-Qaeda won and this is what they have reduced us to.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. The Statists have won or are winning. Al-Qaeda is just the cover story and the excuse. Stratfor presents an excellent picture of the terror threats to the US today. TSA doesn't begin to address them.

The real threat is from with in. This is not a partisan statement as I believe that all political parties have advanced the Statist agenda. A reversal of that agenda would yield less government and that hasn't happened in the past 20 years. Entities like TSA don't start out bad but the lack of any check and balance on their policies permits them to grow into this kind of a ridiculous monster. One could have hoped that Congress would have provided some oversight and acted as a brake on this reckless dissolution of our liberty but I don't believe that there are currently any checks and balances on the power of the Executive branch. So Home Land Security is left to do as it pleases, all under the guise of saving us. I, for one, don't think that we need this much "saving."

[VMI77]

If conservative, liberal, everyone hates these procedures why are they being allowed to continue.

Because Federal bureaucracies of all stripe are NOT accountable to the people, even through our elected representatives. "They" have determined that they know what is best for us and there is no deterrence the zealotry.

VMI77 makes an excellent point that I really hadn't thought through completely. If there really was the potential for explosives, the current procedures put every TSA worker at risk for a premature detention.

The whole TSA strategy is cut from the same cloth as the school zero tolerance. Innocent kids are punished and there is little effect on the real problem with guns or drugs in schools. When a incident is discovered that strains even the wildest stretch of credibility, it is easy for those in charge to claim that it is "policy."

This is why I home school my kids and why we drive just about anywhere we need to go. Right now, at this moment, I can "opt out" of the system. What scares me the most is that the TSA wants to be just about everywhere and has gotten their tentacles into everything. They are reckless in everything they do, their searches and ague-ably assaults of the flying general public make no one safer. If you are really looking for bombs on a person's body do you want to do that in front of 100's/1000's of people in security lines with nothing but a rubber glove separating you from what might be a highly unstable item. They are searching passengers, but not cargo. Hello--if a person really wanted to take out a plane at 30,000 feet with the screening procedures in place today they would send the explosives by cargo--not by person. It is alarmingly reminiscent of the tactics of other brutal regimes through history and unless someone checks it we are in serious trouble here.

Correct on all points I think. And the looking for explosives nonsense is so absurd it beggars belief that it is so easily peddled without being ridiculed.

There are only two possibilities: explosives carried in the manner used to justify these searches (of grandmas, families, and baby diapers) are a serious and realistic threat; or they're not. Assume the threat is serious...next question --what would one of these terrorists do if they got caught at a security checkpoint and weren't going to be able to detonate themselves on the plane? Obvious answer: at least some would detonate themselves immediately (or they would be remotely detonated by an accomplice). So, how would such a threat be countered? Some obvious measures would be: 1) jam cell phones and RF signals in air terminals since such devices are known to be used for remote detonation; 2) screen passengers before they enter a terminal full of people; 3) erect explosive barriers around the screening area inside the terminal; 4) move the security line further from the scanning point; 5) have marksmen ready to take a head shot when an alarm went off; and 6) they'd also be selecting the most likely subjects for additional screening. Yet they don't do any of this, so, either they're willing to let their own agents die along with passengers in order to be politically correct, or they don't really believe the threat is serious; because if the TSA really thought a passenger had a bomb and was prepared to detonate it on a plane, there is no way they'd walk up to this passenger wearing rubber gloves and put their hands down his pants.

[VMI77]

The real threat is from with in. This is not a partisan statement as I believe that all political parties have advanced the Statist agenda. A reversal of that agenda would yield less government and that hasn't happened in the past 20 years. Entities like TSA don't start out bad but the lack of any check and balance on their policies permits them to grow into this kind of a ridiculous monster. One could have hoped that Congress would have provided some oversight and acted as a brake on this reckless dissolution of our liberty but I don't believe that there are currently any checks and balances on the power of the Executive branch. So Home Land Security is left to do as it pleases, all under the guise of saving us. I, for one, don't think that we need this much "saving."

Exactly. And Congress is a joke: all we need now is a Caligula to ride into the Senate and install his horse as a brand new Senator in order to deliver the punchline.

[sjfcontrol]

...because if the TSA really thought a passenger had a bomb and was prepared to detonate it on a plane, there is no way they'd walk up to this passenger wearing rubber gloves and put their hands down his pants.

Now that's the winning quote of the day!

[woodsong]

That's a thought -- if a terrorist really wanted to mess up the airline industry and kill 100's of people, all he has to do is set off a bomb in a crowded security area while standing in line with hundreds of other passengers waiting to get through security.

[OldSchool]

That's a thought -- if a terrorist really wanted to mess up the airline industry and kill 100's of people, all he has to do is set off a bomb in a crowded security area while standing in line with hundreds of other passengers waiting to get through security.

Now you understand! Isn't it an amazing feeling when the political fog lifts?

[philip964]

As casual observers of the screening process, we have all seen elderly people and children singled out for extra inspection. If they have lax inspection of those groups, the TSA is afraid that elderly people or children will be used by terrorists to smuggle bomb making materials on to planes.

However, it seems the real target group that the terrorists should try as their couriers is the part of the population who are younger single males, traveling on one way cash tickets, with foreign passports, who appear muslim in dress or looks. Due to the appearance that it would be discriminatory to examine them, this group seems to get the least examination of all classes of airline passengers.

I must assume that you have a citable and genuinely credible source for your unqualified statement of fact I emphasized above. May we see it? If not, I must assume you do not have one, but sure as the world in this cyber-age your statement will be in turn quoted, "but I saw it on the Internet."

Elmo

Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab

Olajide Oluwaseun Noibi

(that's now two credible sources if your counting)
Of course Olajide shouldn't count cause he didn't have a real ticket.

[dicion]

If the TSA really does believe in this possibility, then the procedure they're following is criminally negligent, since if someone really was carrying explosives they planned to detonate on an airplane, the moment they got picked out for screening, the bomb would be detonated --either by the person carrying it or by remote control. The fact that they take no precautions for this possibility tells you that they think the chance of it happening is zero, and therefore, the chance they're really looking for explosives in grandma's diaper is zero.

Exactly, Terrorists want body counts, they don't care where. It's not like they can ONLY blow up bombs on airplanes, and if they get to Airport Security and see they might be detected, they turn around and go home.

I'm just waiting for a terrorist to pick a busy airport, with a HUGE security line of TONS of people, wait in it until they're in the middle, surrounded by everyone, and blow one up.
Whats TSA going to do then? Have a pre-security checkpoint before the security checkpoint?

Anywhere they can get the most bodies for the bang is where they'll target. If you make one harder, they won't give up and go home, they'll just go somewhere else! And whats the current best place for bodies packed tightly? Packed waiting lines for security checkpoints.



There's at least 4 plane-loads of people there... why only take one one, when you can get 4!

[boba]

If the TSA really does believe in this possibility, then the procedure they're following is criminally negligent, since if someone really was carrying explosives they planned to detonate on an airplane, the moment they got picked out for screening, the bomb would be detonated --either by the person carrying it or by remote control. The fact that they take no precautions for this possibility tells you that they think the chance of it happening is zero, and therefore, the chance they're really looking for explosives in grandma's diaper is zero.

Exactly, Terrorists want body counts, they don't care where. It's not like they can ONLY blow up bombs on airplanes, and if they get to Airport Security and see they might be detected, they turn around and go home.

I'm just waiting for a terrorist to pick a busy airport, with a HUGE security line of TONS of people, wait in it until they're in the middle, surrounded by everyone, and blow one up.
Whats TSA going to do then? Have a pre-security checkpoint before the security checkpoint?

Anywhere they can get the most bodies for the bang is where they'll target. If you make one harder, they won't give up and go home, they'll just go somewhere else! And whats the current best place for bodies packed tightly? Packed waiting lines for security checkpoints.



There's at least 4 plane-loads of people there... why only take one one, when you can get 4!

Those are both great arguments that make a lot of sense, but you're missing a key point. The TSA is a Federal bureaucracy and rational thought is anathema to career bureaucrats and most politicians.

[chasfm11]

Another point:

Olajide Oluwaseun Noibi did NOT pass the TSA security checkpoint. He just did not "test positive" for the things that they were looking for in the scanning process. He FAILED the very first TSA procedure: Having a VALID boarding pass and a matching ID. Without those, you are not even supposed to be be allowed in the checkpoint area. I've had to produce those, as an American citizen, every time that I've flown. I've returned to the US from Europe and Canada and it is always the same - government issued photo ID and current boarding pass.

[dicion]

Another point:

Olajide Oluwaseun Noibi did NOT pass the TSA security checkpoint. He just did not "test positive" for the things that they were looking for in the scanning process. He FAILED the very first TSA procedure: Having a VALID boarding pass and a matching ID. Without those, you are not even supposed to be be allowed in the checkpoint area. I've had to produce those, as an American citizen, every time that I've flown. I've returned to the US from Europe and Canada and it is always the same - government issued photo ID and current boarding pass.

Actually, you don't have to show ID... Just claim you 'lost it' or 'left it at home' or whatever.
http://www.consumertraveler.com/columns ... -security/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, Terrorists will never think to possibly use that excuse...

Just don't intentionally say that you don't want to show it, cuz outright defiance to the TSA is prohibited, but being a dumb citizen who forgets their ID is A-OK!

[VMI77]

Another point:

Olajide Oluwaseun Noibi did NOT pass the TSA security checkpoint. He just did not "test positive" for the things that they were looking for in the scanning process. He FAILED the very first TSA procedure: Having a VALID boarding pass and a matching ID. Without those, you are not even supposed to be be allowed in the checkpoint area. I've had to produce those, as an American citizen, every time that I've flown. I've returned to the US from Europe and Canada and it is always the same - government issued photo ID and current boarding pass.

Actually, you don't have to show ID... Just claim you 'lost it' or 'left it at home' or whatever.
http://www.consumertraveler.com/columns ... -security/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, Terrorists will never think to possibly use that excuse...

Just don't intentionally say that you don't want to show it, cuz outright defiance to the TSA is prohibited, but being a dumb citizen who forgets their ID is A-OK!

Didn't work for my son at the Austin airport when he forgot his ID two months ago. We had to make a four hour round-trip drive home and he had to board a later flight (and I had asked him before we left if he had his ID, and he said he did, apparently without really checking).

[dicion]

Didn't work for my son at the Austin airport when he forgot his ID two months ago. We had to make a four hour round-trip drive home and he had to board a later flight (and I had asked him before we left if he had his ID, and he said he did, apparently without really checking).

But was that at the Ticket Counter? or Security?

I can see them saying no at the ticket counter to checking bags without it.
But if it was security, well at least we know they're doing it.