Legal use of pepper spray

[CHLSteve]

I apologize if this has been covered, but I did not find anything with the search.

I would like to know when it's "OK" to use pepper spray--legally speaking. In other words, in what circumstances could you use the product without fear of legal consequence?

I'm thinking about cases where use of a gun would be too extreme, and unjustified, but I'm not looking forward to getting into a fist fight with some jerk either.

I'll give a specific example of what I mean. I was golfing with my father a few months ago. The group behind us kept hitting balls into our group (very dangerous BTW) so my father said something to them to cut it out. There was a young guy with them, and he was very aggressive and loud mouthed (swearing and such). He approached us and was yelling about us playing too slow, etc.. I stood in between he and my father. For a second, I thought we were about to throw down. Fortunately, he thought better of it, and turned and left us alone. Fight-wise we probably would have been about equally matched, but I really didn't feel like going to blows with this punk in the middle of my round. My thought was that I would never have drawn on him (don't carry out on the course anyway), but if I had some pepper spray he was moments from getting a face full of it. However, it would not be worth any legal trouble that might follow.

[seamusTX]

Pepper spray is force, not deadly force. If you have a justification for using force according to chapter 9 of the Texas penal code, you can use pepper spray.

Mental, verbal, or ocular judo, such as you used, is always a better alternative if it works.

As usual, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

- Jim

[tx.agg.96]

I apologize if this has been covered, but I did not find anything with the search.

I would like to know when it's "OK" to use pepper spray--legally speaking. In other words, in what circumstances could you use the product without fear of legal consequence?

I'm thinking about cases where use of a gun would be too extreme, and unjustified, but I'm not looking forward to getting into a fist fight with some jerk either.

I'll give a specific example of what I mean. I was golfing with my father a few months ago. The group behind us kept hitting balls into our group (very dangerous BTW) so my father said something to them to cut it out. There was a young guy with them, and he was very aggressive and loud mouthed (swearing and such). He approached us and was yelling about us playing too slow, etc.. I stood in between he and my father. For a second, I thought we were about to throw down. Fortunately, he thought better of it, and turned and left us alone. Fight-wise we probably would have been about equally matched, but I really didn't feel like going to blows with this punk in the middle of my round. My thought was that I would never have drawn on him (don't carry out on the course anyway), but if I had some pepper spray he was moments from getting a face full of it. However, it would not be worth any legal trouble that might follow.

wow, i've played lots of golf and never seen anything like that.

however, it seems to me, having a 3-iron in your hand would be helpful.

i have a few clubs strategically placed around the house.

[TexasComputerDude]

I can get kicked out of college for bringing pepper spray on campus, ugh.

[KD5NRH]

I can get kicked out of college for bringing pepper spray on campus, ugh.

You can get a lot worse for not having it when you need it. If they can't actually arrest you for it, then just keep it out of sight.

IMO, that's one of the nice things about the Guardian Angel before they decided to relabel it the Uber-Super-Duper-TactiCool-PepperBlaster. As just the Guardian Angel, people would really have a hard time figuring out what it is even if they read the name. You could pass it off as a medical device of some sort - maybe a super-fancy two-shot EpiPen. No way to do that with "PEPPERBLASTER" in block letters across the pocket clip.

[seamusTX]

I should have said this earlier, though the OP didn't ask: Pepper spray disables an assailant for a minute at most, and possibly not at all. If the guy was angry before, he's going to be really angry afterward, and he knows what you've got now.

So where are you going to be when he recovers?

When the police use pepper spray, their goal is disabling the person long enough to put handcuffs on him. Non-LEO self-defense is quite different.

- Jim

[CHLSteve]

I should have said this earlier, though the OP didn't ask: Pepper spray disables an assailant for a minute at most, and possibly not at all. If the guy was angry before, he's going to be really angry afterward, and he knows what you've got now.

So where are you going to be when he recovers?

In this example, I would have taken my father and driven off. I figure the use would be a distraction enough for me to get out of the area, and call the clubhouse/police if necessary. I would then prepare for further action depending on how aggressive the guy was.

A minute at most huh? I always thought a blast to the eyes would get you 5-10.

[flb_78]

(don't carry out on the course anyway)

Why?

[MTICop]

A minute at most huh? I always thought a blast to the eyes would get you 5-10.

It really depends on the individual. I have been sprayed a few times (training purposes, residual spray at an incident, etc) and it doesn't effect me as much as it used to. However, I had one officer working for me that couldn't stand it at all. It would eat him up for a while. I have also heard of it not working at all on some.

I personally don't think it's use was warranted the way it was originally described (taken literally). IMHO, I would have either just let them play through or left the course. Knowing me, I would have been pretty mad and I know that would effect my game which would have made things worse so I would have probably just left. But that's just me. FWIW, I have been hit into a few times while playing golf as well and I must say I don't like it at all.

My .02.

[KD5NRH]

I have been sprayed a few times (training purposes, residual spray at an incident, etc)

etc? Rough date, maybe?

[MTICop]

I have been sprayed a few times (training purposes, residual spray at an incident, etc)

etc? Rough date, maybe?

Funny! Not true, but funny.

[seamusTX]

A minute at most huh? I always thought a blast to the eyes would get you 5-10.

You are right, for a spray square on both eyes and the nose.

As usual, I get in trouble for posting without giving the issue enough thought. I have been using the rule of thumb of 30 seconds to a minute for sprays that don't hit both eyes, or don't last long enough. With a live assailant, he may duck, turn his head, or hit your hand if he's close enough. Or the wind might divert the spray.

I don't remember where I got that figure.

IMHO, you just can't depend on the stuff to work in every case.

- Jim

[MTICop]

A minute at most huh? I always thought a blast to the eyes would get you 5-10.

You are right, for a spray square on both eyes and the nose.

As usual, I get in trouble for posting without giving the issue enough thought. I have been using the rule of thumb of 30 seconds to a minute for sprays that don't hit both eyes, or don't last long enough. With a live assailant, he may duck, turn his head, or hit your hand if he's close enough. Or the wind might divert the spray.

I don't remember where I got that figure.

IMHO, you just can't depend on the stuff to work in every case.

- Jim

Absolutely, all of these are things to consider before deploying pepper spray. I must also add that the individual deploying the spray must also ensure the nozzle is pointed toward the target, not themselves. I've seen that happen as well. It was funny as it was a training exercise with an OC training can but you could easily see how this could happen for real in a stressful situation. Then it wouldn't be so funny.

[Excaliber]

I should have said this earlier, though the OP didn't ask: Pepper spray disables an assailant for a minute at most, and possibly not at all. If the guy was angry before, he's going to be really angry afterward, and he knows what you've got now.

So where are you going to be when he recovers?

When the police use pepper spray, their goal is disabling the person long enough to put handcuffs on him. Non-LEO self-defense is quite different.

- Jim

If view of the fact that OC sprays' interference with the bad guy is both partial and very temporary, my answer to the above question would be: "At least 50 yards and away and continuing to open the distance between us with enthusiasm."

[CHLSteve]

(don't carry out on the course anyway)

Why?

Well, there's no good place for a gun while swinging a golf club. I suppose I could stash something in my bag if I wanted to.

I personally don't think it's use was warranted the way it was originally described (taken literally). IMHO, I would have either just let them play through or left the course. Knowing me, I would have been pretty mad and I know that would effect my game which would have made things worse so I would have probably just left. But that's just me. FWIW, I have been hit into a few times while playing golf as well and I must say I don't like it at all.

I agree, and I would not have used it then, but my question is at what point does it become warranted? I was expecting him to start shoving or pushing at which point I think I would have doused him rather than get into the a knock down drag out fist fight on the tee box.

I was very angry after it happened, and it did ruin a few holes. Off topic, I don't know why people cannot wait an additional 20-30 seconds for the group in front of them to clear before hitting. A well-struck golf ball travels at over 150 MPH, and those hard little white balls can really hurt someone.