Battle Optic Grouping

[Medic218]

I recently picked up my first LPVO so not having traditional cross-hairs and shooting super tight groups is killing my OCD and using the tip of the chevron is definitely taking some getting used to.
So, when zeroing an optic with a battle reticle, like the ACSS, what do you think is an acceptable 100 yard group?

[Paladin]

I recently picked up my first LPVO so not having traditional cross-hairs and shooting super tight groups is killing my OCD and using the tip of the chevron is definitely taking some getting used to.
So, when zeroing an optic with a battle reticle, like the ACSS, what do you think is an acceptable 100 yard group?

Depends on your rifle/ammo. MILSPEC is around 2.75 MOA ~2.75 inches at 100 yards. So with that ammo, ~3 inches would be respectable.

[Medic218]

Yeah, I figured minute of man would be acceptable with this reticle. It's just taking some getting used to.
I was kind of rushed on my first trip out with it so I left the range feeling like I accomplished little to nothing other than getting on paper.
I'll take my time tomorrow and hopefully have some better results.

[cmgee67]

I run a primary arms 1-6 with the ACSS reticle. You want the tip of the chevron the be your aiming point. At 100 yards I was shooting 1” group with standard federal 5.56 55gr. In order your use that reticle to its full potential you need to zero at 100.

[Medic218]

I run a primary arms 1-6 with the ACSS reticle. You want the tip of the chevron the be your aiming point. At 100 yards I was shooting 1” group with standard federal 5.56 55gr. In order your use that reticle to its full potential you need to zero at 100.

Thats the same scope I have and 1" groups? sheesh...
Thats the plan for tomorrow.
Taking mostly M193 and some 62 gr soft points.
I'll report back.

[cmgee67]

Yessir it is possible. I had the rifle in a really
Good rest tho. I try to take the human factor out of it the best I can. I also attribute it to a rock solid mount and rings as well and a good trigger.

[Beiruty]

2 MOA is now what most AR can do
Target AR or high quality AR can do 1MOA or less

For any plausible scenarios hitting a 18" gong at 200 yards is what max an AR is asked to do

[cmgee67]

2 MOA is now what most AR can do
Target AR or high quality AR can do 1MOA or less

For any plausible scenarios hitting a 18" gong at 200 yards is what max an AR is asked to do

This

[The Annoyed Man]

I recently picked up my first LPVO so not having traditional cross-hairs and shooting super tight groups is killing my OCD and using the tip of the chevron is definitely taking some getting used to.
So, when zeroing an optic with a battle reticle, like the ACSS, what do you think is an acceptable 100 yard group?

I have a ACSS LVPO on two of my uppers—a 16” Wylde chambered .223/5.56, and a 10.5” .300 Blk. ACSS scopes will do whatever the rifle/ammo combo and the shooter are capable of doing. Both of those uppers have match-grade barrels for which the manufacturer (whoever made "Rainier Select" grade barrels at the time that I bought these two) guarantees "sub-MOA" using match-grade ammo, and that has been exactly my experience ..... with actual match-grade ammo. Otherwise, all bets are off.

With M193 ball, accuracy is in the 1.5-2.5 MOA range, and with M855 ball, it’s in the 2.0-3.0 MOA range. Terminal ballistics aside, it has been my experience in all of my 5.56/.223 chambered ARs that M193 is marginally more accurate than M855. That includes barrels with 1:9, 1:8, and 1:7 twists. I’ve read up on this phenomenon a little bit, and the theory that made the most sense to me was a problem of bullet concentricity. The 100% lead core 55 grain bullet is more uniformly concentric than the 62 grain bullet with its additional steel penetrator. All other things being equal, more uniformly concentric bullets have smaller dispersion patterns over their ballistic track, than less uniformly concentric bullets, and that translates to group sizes down range.

But all of this is largely academic. If you’re talking about minute of man, and you’re "only" getting 3 MOA out of your rifle/ammo combination (and you’re the perfect shooter who never bobbles a shot), who cares? If you’re aiming for a thoracic COM at 100 yards, that’s a 3” circle, and you’re still gonna hit him dead center in the chest, and there is a high probability that the hit will be fatal. At 200 yards, it’s a 6” circle at 200 yards (still a thoracic hit), and there’s still a significant probability of it being a fatal hit. If the average human torso is 18” wide at the shoulder (one of the predicates upon which the ACSS reticle is based), you’re still within a 9” circle at 300 yards, and at the very least it’s a disabling injury. ALL of these, btw, include a high probability of producing a sucking chest wound. I can't post the Clint Smith video that I’d like to post here, because he "colorfully exercises" his 1st Amendment , but in it he discusses the supposed lack of effectiveness of the .223/5.56 cartridge in self defense. And just ONE of his pearls of wisdom is this: who cares if you don’t disable your opponent with the first shot? Just shoot him again!

Beyond 300 yards, can you conceive of a situation in which you actually need to be shooting at another human being? Because I’ve got to say that, for me personally, it’s hard to imagine why I’d need to shoot further than down to the end of my block, even under the most extreme circumstances; and if the distances are longer than that, maybe my energies would be better applied to getting out of dodge. I live in suburbia. If I lived on 100 acres somewhere, I’d probably feel different about it. But if I did live on 100 acres, I’d also likely be toting a .308 with a higher magnification scope and a milling reticle....because .308 hits harder at longer ranges, and also because I’d be concerned about effectively putting down 4 legged predators and more "bullet-resistant" animals like hogs.

ANYWHO.... all of this is my usual long winded and roundabout way of saying, practice with and have confidence in the scope, but research and use the ammo that gives you the best combination of accuracy and terminal ballistics in that rifle, and then keep that ammo in your magazines dedicated to home/self-defense. Load the rest with your ball ammo of choice for plinking and/or Ragnarok.

FYI, Trijicon is now manufacturing ACOGs using the ACSS reticle (for now, sold exclusively on the PA website), so the reticle is the real deal.

https://www.primaryarms.com/TA44-C-400306
https://www.primaryarms.com/trijicon-ac ... ss-reticle

Being Trijicons, they’re not cheap, but I don’t think that Trijicon would agree to manufacture these under their own name, if they didn’t think highly of the reticle.

[Medic218]

TAM, thanks for your very well put together reply.

I went back out today, on my own, and was able to take my time.
In all I spent four hours looking down the scope so now everything appears a hair fuzzy. lol
I shot several different brands/loads of ammo and found three I felt were superior, a few that were serviceable and the rest were just a mess.

A brief run down is as follows...
AE M193(50/100): 1"-2" / 3"-4"
Frontier M193(50/100): 1"-2" / 3"-4"(This seemed to group oddly compared to the AE M193)
Frontier 556 62gr SP(100): 2.5"-3.5"
Federal Fusion 223 62gr(50/100): 2" / 3"
Federal 223 55gr Nosler Tip(50/100): 1.25-1.50" / 1.25"-3"
Winchester 556 55gr FMJ(50/100): 2" / 4"
Winchester 223 64gr Power Point(50/100): 2"-2.5" / 3.5"
Hornady Black 556 62gr(50/100): 1" / 4"
Hornady Black 223 62gr(50/100): 1"-2.5" / 5.5"
Hornady 223 55gr SP(50/100): 0.5"-2" / 2"
Fiocchi Extrema 223 55gr PSP(50/100): 1"-2" / 1"-2"
PPU 223 Match 69gr HPBT(50/100): 1.25" / 3.5"-4"
Black Hills 223 68gr Heavy Match HP(50/100): 3" / 3.5"
Black Hills 223 69gr Match(50/100): 2" / 4.5"
Black HIlls 223 75gr Match HP(50/100): 4.25" / 4.5"
Black HIlls 223 77gr HP(50/100): 1.25" / 1.5"

[jb2012]

TAM, thanks for your very well put together reply.

I went back out today, on my own, and was able to take my time.
In all I spent four hours looking down the scope so now everything appears a hair fuzzy. lol
I shot several different brands/loads of ammo and found three I felt were superior, a few that were serviceable and the rest were just a mess.

A brief run down is as follows...
AE M193(50/100): 1"-2" / 3"-4"
Frontier M193(50/100): 1"-2" / 3"-4"(This seemed to group oddly compared to the AE M193)
Frontier 556 62gr SP(100): 2.5"-3.5"
Federal Fusion 223 62gr(50/100): 2" / 3"
Federal 223 55gr Nosler Tip(50/100): 1.25-1.50" / 1.25"-3"
Winchester 556 55gr FMJ(50/100): 2" / 4"
Winchester 223 64gr Power Point(50/100): 2"-2.5" / 3.5"
Hornady Black 556 62gr(50/100): 1" / 4"
Hornady Black 223 62gr(50/100): 1"-2.5" / 5.5"
Hornady 223 55gr SP(50/100): 0.5"-2" / 2"
Fiocchi Extrema 223 55gr PSP(50/100): 1"-2" / 1"-2"
PPU 223 Match 69gr HPBT(50/100): 1.25" / 3.5"-4"
Black Hills 223 68gr Heavy Match HP(50/100): 3" / 3.5"
Black Hills 223 69gr Match(50/100): 2" / 4.5"
Black HIlls 223 75gr Match HP(50/100): 4.25" / 4.5"
Black HIlls 223 77gr HP(50/100): 1.25" / 1.5"

What rifle/barrel are you shooting? Also is it free floated? Is the barrel crowned correctly? What kind of scope mount, is it concentric, is it torqued properly? These are the first few questions that come to mind reading this thread. I really don’t think you’re that far off from general AR practical accuracy with factory ammunition. You could most certainly tighten those groups up with some consistent hand loads.

[Medic218]

Rifle specs:
Home made with a Faxon 16” Gov/SOCOM 1:8
Barrel is free floated and I can’t speak to proper crowning but given Faxon’s reputation I doubt they messed that up.
Primary Arms 1-6 ACSS in a UTG Accu-Sync - all torqued to spec.
I was skeptical about going with the UTG but I couldn’t find a single negative review on it and a couple members on this forum even suggested it as well.
Seems to have done its job yesterday.

[Beiruty]

Now you have enough data on what Factory ammo your AR likes. Stock some of the those.

[Medic218]

Now you have enough data on what Factory ammo your AR likes. Stock some of the those.

Yup, the plan is the AE M193, Hornady 55gr SP and the Fiocchi 55gr PSP.

[The Annoyed Man]

Now you have enough data on what Factory ammo your AR likes. Stock some of the those.

Yup, the plan is the AE M193, Hornady 55gr SP and the Fiocchi 55gr PSP.

Bingo. I have plenty of Green Tip too, but that’s left over from previous purchases. I haven’t bought any in a while. I’ll eventually burn through it, but 90% or more of the .223/5.56 ammo I’ve bought in the past few years has been either M193 ball, or Nosler Partition or PSP soft points In 55 or 60 grains. The rest has been either heavy OTM, or specific commercial hunting loads to test for accuracy.