ar15 red dot sight. Yea or Nay?

[9mmfan]

So, I withstood a long period of denial. Then, as chance would have it, I spent the better part of one day on the interweb. Found myself bitten by the Black Rifle bug. Am now looking to obtain a S&W M&P15MOE. What leads me to launch this inquiry is the incredibly vast arena of optics. Would think of this as a target, coyote hunting, Excrement-Hits-The-Air-Conditioning type of weapon. As far as target acquisition, a red dot scope seems to be the most popular. However, this all seems to circle around the idea of the "co-witness" of the iron sights. I do not understand the importance of this idea. Maybe in low light. Other than that it just seems like an expensive excuse not to practice. I will therefore ask my boardmates for their opinions, comments, gripes, and complaints. Please give me the background to be an old salted dog my the time I get the carbine home. As always, I thank you in advance for your insight.

[Weg]

I have a eotech on my flat-top with a flip up rear sight right behind it. I have found that beyond 100 yds. I am much more accurate if I use the rear flip up and the eotech in conjunction. I have always wanted to get the magnifier but just never have, mainly due to price. I already have 400.00 in the eotech and I think the magnifier is another 4 or 500.00. Anyhow, I think the eotech is great, never looked through an aimpoint though, maybe they are as good or better...

[MoJo]

I have the M&P MOE I find myself using the flip up without the red dot 90% of the time in bright light. Bright sunlight washes out the red dot. In low light and at night the red dot is the way to go. Co whitness simply means being able to use either red dot ot iron sights without having to remove one or the other.

[Zoomie]

My thoughts

A "red dot" sight will not improve your accuracy by a significant amount (unless its magnified)

"red dot" sights are worth it because they will greatly improve your ability to acquire targets quickly.

Co-witnessing was not meant to mean using the red dot and irons at the same time. Co-witnessing allows you to transition immediately to your irons if your red dot goes out. (If you still have to line up your front and rear sights, there really is no purpose to having a red dot).

If you want accuracy (for varmints, targets or whatever) get a regular scope.

If you want to be able to engage targets quickly or from less than ideal shooting positions get a red dot

Whatever you do, become proficient with your irons before you begin becoming proficient with your optic.

[The Annoyed Man]

Doesn't matter to me whether irons and optics co-witness or not.

What he said. Mine are, but that's purely coincidental. If I'm down to using the irons, the red dot isn't working anyway. But do make sure your irons are zeroed for a known distance.

My carbine has both an EOTech sight and an EOTech 3X magnifier. The sight reticle is very nice and it works very well. But being perfectly honest, I don't pay too much attention to the outer ring of the reticle, just the dot placement... ...although I did notice yesterday at the range that the outer ring appears to be the width of a B27 target silhouette at 25 yards. So that is a handy piece of information to squirrel away.

But even though the EOTech sight alone works very well, it is golden with the magnifier in place — particularly with my aging eyes. You can't miss. I believe that I might even be comfortable using the sight and magnifier combo for hunting, assuming the caliber was appropriate for the application. It's not as good as a good riflescope for hunting, but it is still pretty good. But the magnifiers are expensive. I got mine from an Arizona vendor on ebay for $499.00 (with free shipping), with the EOTech flip-to-side mount included. MSRP is $589, so $499 isn't too bad of a price, particularly since there is no sales tax or freight involved.

But, there are other good manufacturers out there on the market, and their products are just as good, just different. In some cases they are better. What works for me might not work for you, so don't feel like you have to go with EOTech. However, like anything else having to do with optics, better costs more, regardless of brand name.

[gringop]

I used to have flip down sights front and rear that co-witnessed with my Eotech. If my Eotech went down I would have had to dismount the gun, raise the front sight, raise the rear sight and then get back to shooting.

I have since gone to a fixed front sight, leave my rear sight up and mounted the Eotech on a quick detach riser. My iron sights are in the lower third of the Eotech's window. Now, if my Eotech goes down, I move my eye a 1/4 inch lower and keep on shooting.

A good RDS can improve your speed and accuracy without question. But you still need to be good just using irons. I would suggest shooting the gun with irons only for a while and then decide if you want an RDS. Good ones are not cheap and can still have battery and internal issues. Bad, cheap ones just don't hold up.

Gringop

[foo.c]

I have an eotech on my AR that is set up to co-witness with the iron sights in the lower third of the window. I like that setup because it gets the dot up over the front sight and helps me see the target better when using the eotech. If the eotech fails or whatever, you get the proper cheekweld and your irons are right there.

[A-R]

So, I withstood a long period of denial. Then, as chance would have it, I spent the better part of one day on the interweb. Found myself bitten by the Black Rifle bug. Am now looking to obtain a S&W M&P15MOE. What leads me to launch this inquiry is the incredibly vast arena of optics. Would think of this as a target, coyote hunting, Excrement-Hits-The-Air-Conditioning type of weapon. As far as target acquisition, a red dot scope seems to be the most popular. However, this all seems to circle around the idea of the "co-witness" of the iron sights. I do not understand the importance of this idea. Maybe in low light. Other than that it just seems like an expensive excuse not to practice. I will therefore ask my boardmates for their opinions, comments, gripes, and complaints. Please give me the background to be an old salted dog my the time I get the carbine home. As always, I thank you in advance for your insight.

One of the more unique set ups I've been seeing lately is to mount a relatively low-power or mid-range scope (a 1-4x up to about a 3-9x) in the normal position, then mount a very small red dot (Burris Fastfire is popular, or if you have the $$ an Aimpoint Micro) offset to the side at about a 45-degree angle. This gives you "best of both worlds" - a scoped optic for hunting and medium-to-long-range shooting + a small red dot for up close and person. The 45-degree angle red dot is utilized by "twisting" the rifle to your left (if you're right-handed; opposite if you're left-handed) so you maintain your cheekweld and are now looking through the red dot (usually mounted on quad rail up near the front).

The home page photo on the LaRue Tactical web site shows a god example of this set up. http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactic ... eFront.bok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .... look at the main photo, bit hard to see until you look closely, but that looks like roughly a 3-9 Nightforce main scope with an Aimpoint Micro red dot mounted offset to right of scope (if you're holding rifle ready to fire).

Of course, that set up costs well over $2000 .... Nightfore scope = $1500, Aimpoint Micro = $500+, LaRue SPR scope mount = $200, LaRue offset red dot mount $100 ... Or you can also do the same thing with a Trijicon ACOG and Dr. Optic red dot for about $2000 as well.

But for us "regular folks" there are alternatives to get a similar setup for way less. The guys at GDS Enterprises in Austin (Ben White near S. Lamar - they also go to some Saxet gun shows) are utilizing a YHM 45-degree angle picatinny mount with a Burris Fastfire red dot to get the same effect. They claim it holds zero and works very well. They've shown me this set up a few times, and it sure saves money over the LaRue setup .... Leupold Mark AR 3-9x scope ($300) + American Defense RECON scope mount $180 + Burris Fastfire $200 + YHM 45-degree angle mount $20 = $700 total for both sights and mounts.

Anyway, it's another option. I actually picked up one of those American Defense RECON scope mounts for a Nikon 2.5-10x that I'm going to mount on my AR for hunting/distance shooting purposes. I'll post some feedback once I get it mounted and have a chance to run the rifle with this set up a few times. Still not completely sold on the off-set red dot in addition to the scope (I'm probably just going to switch back-n-forth between scope and my EOTech for a while).

[gigag04]

AR: Great recommendation. This is frequently done with purely tactical rifles (not used for hunting if you will....) - an ACOG or a MKIV as the "primary" optic and then a T-1 Micro offset 45. I have not had an opportunity to play with this setup, but I think it would be my first choice if I carried a rifle on my person daily - ie sandbox operations. It can take you from wide open fields of fire into a 10x15 living room and down a hallway without having to switch weapons or go to irons.

I have no reason to believe that it would perform less than amazing on a hunting trip.

[9mmfan]

Would like to thank you all for your prompt and icredibly informative replies. This is why I love this forum. You kids all rock.