Just when you thought Florida was safe...

[KD5NRH]

How lucky do you have to get to hit three different donut shops and a 7-11 without running into a cop?

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Police investigate Dunkin' Donuts, 7-Eleven robbery links
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By CHRISTINA DeNARDO, KATHLEEN CHAPMAN and JASON SCHULTZ

Palm Beach Post Staff Writers

Friday, November 28, 2008

Since Wednesday, armed robbers dressed in black have stormed three Dunkin' Donuts - in Delray Beach, Sunrise and Tamarac - in the late evening while customers snacked and sipped coffee.

Detectives in South Florida are investigating links between shootings during two of those robberies that wounded five people and other violent robberies that occurred this week.

"It's certainly too early to make any connection or speculation," said Broward County sheriff's spokesman Mike Jachles. "But our detectives will certainly be comparing the case to similar cases like the one in Delray."

In the Delray Beach robbery about 10:25 p.m. Wednesday, one of the four gunmen shot three customers who were on the floor before leaving and then shot at a man's windshield as they crossed in front of his car, wounding the driver, police said.

In Sunrise, also on Wednesday night, men wearing similar dark clothing robbed a Dunkin' Donuts at 6299 Sunrise Blvd., according to the Sunrise Police Department.

And about 9:15 p.m. Thursday, armed gunmen opened fire at a Tamarac Dunkin' Donuts, leaving one man with life-threatening injuries.

Investigators in Broward and Palm Beach counties say they are working together to find the robbers.

"They're brazen. They're bold. They're dangerous," Jachles said, according to the Sun Sentinel. "We want to get them off the streets."

The Broward County Sheriff's Office also is investigating whether there's a link between those robberies and one about 11:35 p.m. Wednesday of a 7-Eleven convenience store on Sample Road in Pompano Beach.

As in the other cases, gunmen dressed in black and with their faces covered burst into the store. They did not fire any shots, but one held a gun to the clerk's head.

"We are deeply concerned about what appears to be a string of violent armed robberies in the market and hope the assailants responsible for these tragic crimes are captured swiftly," Dunkin' Donuts said in a statement released Friday, according to WPEC CBS 12. "We are working closely with our franchise owners to support the efforts of the local authorities. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families during this very difficult time."

Despite the shootings, customers were out in force Friday morning at the Dunkin' Donuts in Delray Beach. If regulars of the shop were hesitant about returning, it was not obvious from the full parking lot and buzzing drive-through lane.

"I pity them if they come for me," said Joel Freiberg of Delray Beach, who said he had a concealed weapons permit. "This is Delray, and there are a bunch of snowbirds who live around here. And these people are the scum of the Earth who prey upon them.

"If I happened to be in the store when that went down, it would have been really, really ugly."

Police have said a handful of customers were eating at the restaurant on West Atlantic Avenue when the robbers stormed in with guns drawn.

In an instant, the customers were surrounded and forced to the floor. One of the robbers jumped over the counter, holding a male cashier at gunpoint while two female employees hid in the back, police said. The gunmen rifled through the customers' pockets and cleaned out the register.

Seconds later, with no provocation, one of the robbers fired a shotgun from close range at two customers lying on the floor, police said. Two men were hit in the face or jaw, and a third got small pellets or shrapnel in his leg.

A fourth victim who initially did not know he was hurt later showed up at the VA Medical Center in Riviera Beach with what police described as a shotgun pellet wound to his leg.

Rebecca Bornstein, the wife of one victim, told WPEC CBS 12: "If I got them, I'd shoot them myself. My husband's 84 years old. ... They shot him in the mouth."

The victim's son told the television station that his father had played poker with friends that night, then stopped at Dunkin' Donuts for coffee.

"He didn't go to the floor fast enough," Gary Bornstein said. "They just shot him. Wrong place at the wrong time."

A minute later, the gunmen left the store, running out in front of a white Chevy Lumina. The driver flashed his high beams at the robbers, who responded by shooting through his windshield, police said.

All four people injured in the Delray Beach robbery are expected to survive. None of the victims has been identified by police.

It's unclear what kind of ammunition the men had for the shotgun or how much money they took.

At the Dunkin' Donuts robbery in Tamarac, two armed men burst into the store at 4900 N. State Road 7, while at least six people waited in line.

They began firing, striking Kiem Huynh, 56, according to the Broward County Sheriff's Office. The rest of the customers dropped to the floor.

The robbers, dressed in black hoodies and pants, demanded money from customers. One leaped over the counter and tried to open the cash register but could not, a sheriff's spokesman said. They fled in a white four-door vehicle that was parked outside the parking lot.

Huynh was taken to Broward General Medical Center with life-threatening injuries. Huynh, who was shot in the back, may never walk again, his brother-in-law, Hector Martinez said, according to the Sun Sentinel.

Delray Beach police are offering a $5,000 reward - on top of the $2,500 offered by Crime Stoppers - for information leading to an arrest. Call police at (561) 243-7800 or Crime Stoppers at (800) 458-TIPS (8477).

[seamusTX]

OK, mall ninjas , here's the scenario:

You are in a small, rectangular room with no cover where the tables are screwed to the floor.

You are with your wife, sister, friend, possibly children, multiple people that you care about.

Five armed men (who are desperate, nervous robbers with no conscience) burst through the door (which is the only door except the rear entrance that is behind the counter, 25 feet away.

They order everyone to the floor.

Do you take out five guys with the seven rounds in your .45 so fast that their jaws drop in amazement and they all fail to shoot you?

I have seen a few shooters who could do that when the targets were cardboard. Not many.

Another approach is to grovel on the floor and pray, while covertly dialing 911.

Any other suggestions?

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

You are in a small, rectangular room with no cover

Bad assumption; there's always some sort of counter, usually with a space at the end farthest from the door, which is likely to absorb a few angled hits from handgun calibers. Yes, I do look for these things when I go into such shops.

Though there was a shotgun involved in these robberies, judging from the stories (close range hits to the face and jaw with non-life-threatening injuries, small pellets and shrapnel in the leg) it sounds like he was using birdshot, so the counter should still be good cover.

You are with your wife,

Good, backup.

They order everyone to the floor.

That's the deciding factor; once you're proned out and being searched, you've lost all chance they will find your gun, and they won't assume it means you're another BG and protected by some sort of honor code.

Do you take out five guys with the seven rounds in your .45 so fast that their jaws drop in amazement and they all fail to shoot you?

That's the beauty and the horror of dynamic encounters; nobody can say what will happen until it's over. Maybe Bob Munden's hit hard times and I'll get shot six times before I can squeeze off a single round, or maybe they'll freeze and/or fumble at the first sign of armed resistance.

Another approach is to grovel on the floor and pray, while covertly dialing 911.

If they're distracted enough that I can dial 911, they're distracted enough that i can engage the nearest or most serious threat (the shotgun wielder) and possibly be on the second before they consciously register the armed resistance. That leaves three, who are dealing with a very sudden change in their reality from untouchably superior to a 33% chance of being the next target.

It's a terrible choice to have to make, especially since my usual carry is a 5-shot snub, but given the number of armed robbers who have taken to shooting compliant victims, I'll take a fighting chance over no chance. If nothing else, it may distract the BGs from the rest of the victims long enough for others to escape...or better yet, given the CHL numbers for this county, pull their own gun and improve the odds further - it's not unreasonable here.

As alluded to above, getting your friends and family licensed and trained makes for a serious improvement in the odds. Even one extra GG shooter turns it from 5:1 odds to 2.5:1, and if you train together, that's reasonably manageable.



Waitaminute...the most BGs they mention in any of these is four...where's that fifth guy coming from...are you helping them now?

[seamusTX]

Bad assumption; there's always some sort of counter, usually with a space at the end farthest from the door, which is likely to absorb a few angled hits from handgun calibers. Yes, I do look for these things when I go into such shops.

If you can behind the counter without making yourself a target, that's a great start. Even if they take a shot, they're likely to miss.

Behind the counter is a defensible position. This gang sounds better organized than the usual thugs, so they might have a plan to break off when they encounter effective armed resistance.

Attacking from behind a counter isn't so easy. You have to put your head above it to see, and that makes you a target.

You are with your wife,

Good, backup.

That's fine for the maybe 0.1% of the population that is in that situation, but most defenders are going to have to take into account grandma, kids, etc.

... once you're proned out and being searched, you've lost all chance they will find your gun, and they won't assume it means you're another BG and protected by some sort of honor code.

I agree, it's a terrible situation.

If they find a handgun, they might just steal it. Or they might assume you're a cop and execute you.

Another approach is to grovel on the floor and pray, while covertly dialing 911.

If they're distracted enough that I can dial 911, they're distracted enough that i can engage the nearest or most serious threat (the shotgun wielder) and possibly be on the second before they consciously register the armed resistance. That leaves three, who are dealing with a very sudden change in their reality from untouchably superior to a 33% chance of being the next target.

Yes, and in that case the robbers who are still mobile may flee. Or one of them may take a hostage as a human shield.

That is ultimately a losing proposition for him, because he is eventually going to die from a police sniper's bullet, but a lot of innocent people may die first.

I'll take a fighting chance over no chance. If nothing else, it may distract the BGs from the rest of the victims long enough for others to escape...

That is something well worth thinking about -- preferably in advance.

or better yet, given the CHL numbers for this county, pull their own gun and improve the odds further - it's not unreasonable here.

That's possible. It's more likely in most places that someone else will be a LEO or even another criminal -- they don't like to be robbed any more than we do.

But then you are relying on the training and threat-recognition ability of an unknown third party (which I suppose is still better than nothing).

...the most BGs they mention in any of these is four...where's that fifth guy coming from...?

Sorry, I misread the story.

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

If you can behind the counter without making yourself a target, that's a great start. Even if they take a shot, they're likely to miss.

If they expect me to move from a table to the floor, they're expecting me to move towards the counter anyway. In a place like you've described, the counter either ends or turns back to the back wall before it gets to the side wall, so there's a space there that has cover from the door area, and doesn't require climbing over the counter.

Behind the counter is a defensible position. This gang sounds better organized than the usual thugs, so they might have a plan to break off when they encounter effective armed resistance.

Plan B or not, it definitely throws a monkey wrench into plan A.

Attacking from behind a counter isn't so easy. You have to put your head above it to see, and that makes you a target.

Always attack around - rather than over - cover when possible; you can expose a smaller target, and use your movement to expose yourself only to the target you're actively engaging.

That's fine for the maybe 0.1% of the population that is in that situation, but most defenders are going to have to take into account grandma, kids, etc.

Then there's all the more reason to fight and distract the BGs from them.

If they find a handgun, they might just steal it. Or they might assume you're a cop and execute you.

I'd bet on the latter. At any rate, you've just become a more significant threat, since you're now identified as the type who's been waiting for a chance to catch them off guard. At the very least, you'll have their full attention, and have been relieved of at least your primary weapon.

Yes, and in that case the robbers who are still mobile may flee. Or one of them may take a hostage as a human shield.

Maybe, but even if he does, it's more likely to be a means to cover their escape; if it's planned, they'll realize that executing any other victims will only increase a defender's willingness to risk the hostage shot. If it's not planned, they're flustered and just want to get out ASAP.

As the information presents itself, I don't care for the odds either way, but resistance still looks like the better choice overall.



I just noticed another fringe benefit of these scenarios; now I'm really wanting to go to the range and set this one up to see if I'd even perform well against paper under the circumstances...and really wishing I had four buddies with paintball or Simunitions gear that could meet me there this afternoon.

[seamusTX]

Attacking from behind a counter isn't so easy. You have to put your head above it to see, and that makes you a target.

Always attack around - rather than over - cover when possible;

Right. if you can get behind the counter, you can probably get through a door into a back room.

... most defenders are going to have to take into account grandma, kids, etc.

Then there's all the more reason to fight and distract the BGs from them.

It is a moral reason to do so.

However, the wrong tactics or bad luck can lead to your actions making the situation worse. The crooks might put you out of the fight, injure or kill other people, and still complete the robbery.

In this particular scenario, the robbers have already demonstrated that they will shoot with little or no provocation.

If they find a handgun, they might just steal it. Or they might assume you're a cop and execute you.

I'd bet on the latter.

Or maybe not.

As bad a crime as armed robbery is, most robbers get away. Cop killers have pretty much signed their own death warrant, either at the time of their apprehension or years later in Huntsville.

But that's not a bet you want to have to make.

I just noticed another fringe benefit of these scenarios; now I'm really wanting to go to the range and set this one ...

My only goal here is to get people thinking.

P.S.: I'll bet business is down at doughnut shops in the Miami area.

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

Right. if you can get behind the counter, you can probably get through a door into a back room.

One or two might, so it would be worthwhile to send unarmed family that way, but a group trying to make it without a diversion is just asking to get shot from behind.

Then there's all the more reason to fight and distract the BGs from them.

It is a moral reason to do so.

I would hold that it is also a base instinctive reason to do so. A mother bird will lure, and sometimes even attack against all odds of self-preservation, a predator that threatens the nest.

When the time comes to make such a decision, I doubt anyone can say with certainty whether they will risk everything for the safety of others, or swim to shore and make up a good story. I know which one would let me sleep peacefully afterward, one way or another.

However, the wrong tactics or bad luck can lead to your actions making the situation worse. The crooks might put you out of the fight, injure or kill other people, and still complete the robbery.

Doubtful; note that they waited to shoot the victims in the first robbery until they were on the way out. That indicates that they understand that gunfire will bring a lot of attention they don't want, and that they need to be gone ASAP once the shooting starts.

As bad a crime as armed robbery is, most robbers get away. Cop killers have pretty much signed their own death warrant, either at the time of their apprehension or years later in Huntsville.

If these guys were considering consequences, they wouldn't be shooting compliant elderly folks in the face for fun.

P.S.: I'll bet business is down at doughnut shops in the Miami area.

Nope:

Despite the shootings, customers were out in force Friday morning at the Dunkin' Donuts in Delray Beach. If regulars of the shop were hesitant about returning, it was not obvious from the full parking lot and buzzing drive-through lane.

I bet CHL instructors there are popular today, though.

[seamusTX]

Right. if you can get behind the counter, you can probably get through a door into a back room.

One or two might, so it would be worthwhile to send unarmed family that way, but a group trying to make it without a diversion is just asking to get shot from behind.

I should have completed what I wrote earlier: If the armed defender can make it to the rear door, he can use it for cover and shoot around the vertical part of the door frame.

I would hold that it is also a base instinctive reason to do so. A mother bird will lure, and sometimes even attack against all odds of self-preservation, a predator that threatens the nest.

Sacrificing one's self for the good of others is the greatest expression of devotion. That's why we give people who do it the Medal of Honor or call them saints.

But the sacrifice has to accomplish more good than harm.

The best possible outcome would be to draw the attention of the attackers, force them to break off at the first sign of resistance, take out one or more of them, or delay them until the police sirens are audible and they flee.

If you can do that, they will pin a medal on you.

However, the wrong tactics or bad luck can lead to your actions making the situation worse. The crooks might put you out of the fight, injure or kill other people, and still complete the robbery.

Doubtful; note that they waited to shoot the victims in the first robbery until they were on the way out. That indicates that they understand that gunfire will bring a lot of attention they don't want, and that they need to be gone ASAP once the shooting starts.

I agree with you in this case.

I'll bet business is down at doughnut shops in the Miami area.

Nope: Despite the shootings, customers were out in force Friday morning at the Dunkin' Donuts in Delray Beach.

All I can say is Sheesh.

One shark bite, and beachgoing drops by half for the rest of the year. But people are willing to sit in a high-risk target area where a gang of serial robbers is known to be operating.

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

I should have completed what I wrote earlier: If the armed defender can make it to the rear door, he can use it for cover and shoot around the vertical part of the door frame.

Unfortunately, that also draws their fire in the direction you're sending your family. Better would be to find cover/concealment where you still have a clear path to the door, and continue the diversion until you are certain that everyone you sent out has had time to get completely out of the BGs' line of fire should one of them follow you to the door when you do bug out.

The best possible outcome would be to draw the attention of the attackers, force them to break off at the first sign of resistance, take out one or more of them, or delay them until the police sirens are audible and they flee.

For the reasons stated before, I think that this would be the most likely outcome; they appear to belive they are untouchable, and anything that shatters that belief, like one of them being stopped, is extremely likely to throw their plan into confusion. Additionally, the shotgun wielder seems to be the only one with the killing mindset to stick around and fight it out against armed resistance, thus another reason to make sure he's the first one you target. Probably, given his actions so far, the others also see him as the toughest of their group, so losing him will have more of an impact on their morale than any of the others.

[HighVelocity]

Do you take out five guys with the seven rounds in your .45 so fast that their jaws drop in amazement and they all fail to shoot you?

why would I waste 2 rounds?

Seriously, I would never put myself in a small room 25 ft from the nearest exit in the first place. Your scenario as described pretty much guarantees somebody, be it BG or innocent, is going to get shot.

[seamusTX]

Unfortunately, that also draws their fire in the direction you're sending your family. Better would be to find cover/concealment where you still have a clear path to the door, and continue the diversion until you are certain that everyone you sent out has had time to get completely out of the BGs' line of fire should one of them follow you to the door when you do bug out.

You're throwing me a curve ball here.

I was talking about an armed, able-bodied adult defender getting to cover and using it to let the robbers know that plan A has been cancelled.

Now you're talking about the defender providing cover for others to escape.

Do you really think that's practical in the scenario that I described?

It could work with your wife, whom you implied is aware of self-defense issues.

It would not work with grandma and her walker, or a baby that is likely to start crying at the uproar.

Seriously, I would never put myself in a small room 25 ft from the nearest exit in the first place. Your scenario as described pretty much guarantees somebody, be it BG or innocent, is going to get shot.

Do you never go to places like Shipley's, Subway, and the like? Many of them are laid out that way.

I have noticed it many times while waiting in line and working through scenarios. The patrons in these places are fish in a barrel.

- Jim

[HighVelocity]

Do you never go to places like Shipley's, Subway, and the like? Many of them are laid out that way.

Not if I can help it but at my local Subway, the farthest I can get from an exit is nowhere near 25 ft. And, if it's crowded, I will not go inside. I am very aware of the possibility of getting trapped somwhere and avoid putting myself in a situation where that could happen.

[seamusTX]

In my amateur opinion, Texas law makes all the consequences of a crime the responsibility of the criminal actors. I think you could be sued, but the suit would be thrown out.

The innocent victims would be much more likely to sue the property owner and might win that case.

- Jim

[tarkus]

It looks like the robbers were picking Dunkin Donuts with older customers thinking they're easier targets.