Sell face-to-face to out-of-state resident CCW?

[The Sarge]

I have (in the past 6 or so months) been selling and buying various rifles/handguns to update my collection.
In this process I mainly use Texas Gun Trader. I meet people face to face at a predetermined location such as Bass Pro Shops parking lot etc.
Many are active duty military with out of state license plates but stationed here in San Antonio.
I "size them up" as to .....
1) They are over 21
2) Not an obvious lunatic

Deal is done. They give me cash and we shake hands and I leave.
I have complied to the laws of the State.
I am not required to determine their status as to if they are an out of state resident/their age/their criminal background nor status. I use my best judgement to determine these things.

[marksiwel]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

[TScottTX]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

Knowing that there is a huge difference of opinion in the country concerning 2nd. amendment rights, every firearm that is sold to someone that legally should not be entitled to own it is one more strike against those who believe in said rights. But, unfortunately, many find it difficult to do what they know is right faced with the opportunity to sell a $250 gun for $300 or $400 in cash in a public parking lot somewhere.

[chamberc]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

Having sold and purchased many firearms FTF, I personally, would miss this freedom. I just can't understand how it's different from selling a coffee table or TV.

[chabouk]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

Only if the "next guy" is Sarah Brady.

[marksiwel]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

Having sold and purchased many firearms FTF, I personally, would miss this freedom. I just can't understand how it's different from selling a coffee table or TV.

As long as they MAKE us go through background checks, we might as well make "Everyone" do it. It would shut up the Brady Campaign about the "Gun Show loophole, and would make it alot easier for LEO to crack down on illegal gun dealers and illegal guns which threaten every gun owner because most liberals cant see the difference.
I have a LEO Friend who has a KNOWN gun runner in his town right now, but its hard to get him on it, because he is just selling to "Friends and Family", they are currently working with the BATF to get him, but its harder than you think.
I'm not saying You cant sell a gun for profit, you just have to go through an FLL first, do the state mandatory background checks blah blah blah. If there ever comes a time when they dont make people get FLLs or do background checks, no problem with me.

As hard as it is to believe this, its REALLY about being seen as reasonable about "Gun Control" while still mainting a Strong Front when it comes to Gun Grabbing/gun banning. The NRA has written legislation that could be seen as Anti-Gun, I believe they also drafted legislation that would ban AP Rounds, not that they are a problem or anything. But they get that they have to be flexible on issues that, frankly are hard to support. Your average Joe gets nervous when people start spouting off that the 2nd is about Keeping the goverment in check with possible use of force. Remember half of Americans own guns, but that still leaves the other half.

Like I've said, I wish we could own Machine guns, short barreled shotguns, suppressors, ect, but it aint gonna happen without alot of money and paperwork. We are allready playing the "Game" with D.C. we might as well play Smart.

[chamberc]

An inequality, applied equally is still an inequality. Who really cares about what Gun Control Inc says...

It's like taxes, they're the largest discriminatory practice in the United States, but yet you have its biggest supporters claiming they're for equality.

[The Annoyed Man]

Also, The Texas Standard Waiting period is approximately how long it takes the FFL to run the NCIS Check.

We don't believe in 'waiting periods' here in Texas (Well, other than for Class III Items, but thats more waiting for something to arrive, than waiting for the sake of waiting)

Now, I don't know if you can buy from a Texas FFL and Take it back to your home state. I don't see why not, but then again, I've already been proven wrong once in this thread

I watched a sales clerk at Cheaper than Dirt in Fort Worth tell a furloughed U.S. Marine that he could not sell him a handgun because he was an out of state resident, and not stationed in Texas. He said that it is against Texas law for an FFL to sell a gun to an out of state resident, military or not. OTH, I believe that military personnel who are out of state residents (for voting purposes), but stationed in Texas can purchase from an FFL. Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that?

From a practical perspective, although it might normally be difficult to catch someone illegally selling to an out of state resident in a FTF transaction, I have no confidence that the current administration's "justice" department wouldn't try a sting, just for the purpose of catching an "illegal gun dealer." For that reason, I wouldn't knowingly do it. So if I were selling a firearm in a FTF transaction, I would probably ask to see proof of residency.

When I bought my Springfield from a member here I made it a point to show him my TDL and CHL, even though I don't recall him asking for it, and even though it wasn't strictly required by the law - both of us being Texas residents who are legally allowed to own firearms. I just felt better doing it that way.

[Keith B]

Also, The Texas Standard Waiting period is approximately how long it takes the FFL to run the NCIS Check.

We don't believe in 'waiting periods' here in Texas (Well, other than for Class III Items, but thats more waiting for something to arrive, than waiting for the sake of waiting)

Now, I don't know if you can buy from a Texas FFL and Take it back to your home state. I don't see why not, but then again, I've already been proven wrong once in this thread

I watched a sales clerk at Cheaper than Dirt in Fort Worth tell a furloughed U.S. Marine that he could not sell him a handgun because he was an out of state resident, and not stationed in Texas. He said that it is against Texas law for an FFL to sell a gun to an out of state resident, military or not. OTH, I believe that military personnel who are out of state residents (for voting purposes), but stationed in Texas can purchase from an FFL. Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that?

It depends on if he had legal residence established in the state he was stationed in. He may have left Texas and that was his Home of Record, but had established Legal Residence in the state he was stationed in and was legally now not a Texas resident and ineligible to buy locally. There are two different types of addresses for military personnel; Home of Record and Legal Residence. "Home of Record" and "Legal Residence" may, or may not be the same address.

See below.

From http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/military ... record.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One's "Home of Record" is the place one was living when they entered the military (or, re-enlisted in the military, if one chooses).

"Home of Record" is used to determine travel entitlements when one separates from the military. It has nothing to do with voting or paying taxes, registering vehicles, nor any of the other privileges of state residency.

"Home of Record" can only be changed if there is a break in service of more than one day, or to correct an error.

"Legal Residency," or "domicile", on the other hand refers to the place where a military member intends to return to and live after discharge or retirement, and which they consider their "permanent home." Legal residency determines what local (state) tax laws a military member is subject to, and in which local (city, county, state) elections they may vote in.

Because military members may have "legal residence" in one state, but be stationed in a different state, the Service members Civil Relief Act, allows military members to pay taxes, register vehicles, vote, etc., in their "state of legal residence," rather than the state they are stationed in. This can sometimes result in a tax advantage because several states exempt military pay from state taxes.

Does that mean a military member can change their "legal residence" anytime they want, and therefore avoid paying state taxes? Not quite. Under the law, "legal residence" is the place that the military member intends to live after they separate or retire from the military. It's the place that they consider their "permanent home."

Depending on their service, and local policies, an active duty military member can change their "legal residence" by visiting their local base legal office and/or base finance office and completing a DD Form 2058, State of Legal Residence Certificate.

However, the military is required by regulation to ensure that military members are not changing their "legal residence" for the sole purpose of obtaining a tax advantage. Therefore, when changing your "legal residence," military officials at the legal office (or finance office) may require some degree of proof that you consider the new state to be your "permanent home."

The easiest proof is "physical presence in the state." If you are currently stationed in a state, and wish to make it your permanent home, it's generally pretty easy. If you are not currently stationed in the state you wish to make your permanent home, and have never been stationed there, it become much harder. Generally, you need a specific address, not just the state in general. You can show your intentions to become a legal resident by registering to vote in the new state, by titling and registering your car in the new state (notifying your old state of the change), by getting a driver's license in the new state, or by preparing a new last will and testament (indicating your new state as your legal residence). Buying real property in the new state will also reinforce your claim.

Unless you can show such clear intentions, the military will probably not allow you to change your "legal residence."

Particular care should be taken to ensure your pay records are up-to-date concerning your state of legal residence. If incorrect, you may wind up paying taxes to the wrong state, or paying taxes and penalties in more than one state. If you have any doubt about your state of legal residence, contact your legal assistance office.

You may also be required to complete a W-4 form to determine the amount of withholding, or exemption from withholding state taxes.

[ghostrider]

>As long as they MAKE us go through background checks, we might as well make "Everyone" do it. It would
>shut up the Brady Campaign about the "Gun Show loophole,

It wouldn't stop the Brady campaign - they would just move on to the next target.


> and would make it alot easier for LEO to crack
>down on illegal gun dealers and illegal guns which threaten every gun owner because most liberals cant see
>the difference.

I don't think it would make any difference and isn't really much different than the arguments used in support of gun registration. What you're proposing is effectively what has become law in Canada. I'm pretty sure it has done nothing to slow the illegal sales between criminals on the streets.

[marksiwel]

>As long as they MAKE us go through background checks, we might as well make "Everyone" do it. It would
>shut up the Brady Campaign about the "Gun Show loophole,

It wouldn't stop the Brady campaign - they would just move on to the next target.


> and would make it alot easier for LEO to crack
>down on illegal gun dealers and illegal guns which threaten every gun owner because most liberals cant see
>the difference.

I don't think it would make any difference and isn't really much different than the arguments used in support of gun registration. What you're proposing is effectively what has become law in Canada. I'm pretty sure it has done nothing to slow the illegal sales between criminals on the streets.

I dont think it would have ANY effect on crime, I just see it as the weakest fight in Gun Rights. Its hard to argue "Well we are responsible and we even have to go through FBI background checks, unless you meet someone in the parking lot and then they can do a legal sale there."

Speaking of Canada
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Internation ... 257186265/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
OTTAWA, Nov. 2 (UPI) -- Canadian gun control advocates say they are dismayed that the country's registry for long-gun firearms may soon be abolished.

[Zee]

After reading the frequency of people getting bumped off from a Craigslist sale of an electric typewriter or similar item I would never meet an unknown somewhere to trade guns for cash. It sounds like the opening minutes of CSI.

[dicion]

After reading the frequency of people getting bumped off from a Craigslist sale of an electric typewriter or similar item I would never meet an unknown somewhere to trade guns for cash. It sounds like the opening minutes of CSI.

I'd feel safer selling a gun in a parking lot to someone who has a CCW, than I would selling an iphone to some random joe.

[The Annoyed Man]

It depends on if he had legal residence established in the state he was stationed in. He may have left Texas and that was his Home of Record, but had established Legal Residence in the state he was stationed in and was legally now not a Texas resident and ineligible to buy locally. There are two different types of addresses for military personnel; Home of Record and Legal Residence. "Home of Record" and "Legal Residence" may, or may not be the same address.

See below....

Keith, thanks for the clarification.

[Liberty]

Honestly I'm a Lifelong NRA member, I'm as Pro-second amendment as the next guy, but I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep if they ended private sales all together, or made you go through a FLL for the NCIS check.

It would be an awful thing to happen. Once FTF transactions are made illegal the Government has full control of every trade and purchase and big brother will full records. Private ownership can then be made illegal and enforced.

BTW: the 2nd ammendment isn't just about desirables having arms its about all of us.

The second ammendment isn't just about owning arms. Its about carrying them. to "keep and bear" has real meaning. The second amendment is real clear and wasn't intended to be flexible.