Handgun VS Knife

[Caliber]

I agree with the 45 degree move followed by either running away or trying to stay behind the attacker if you can't escape; keep moving...keep off the "X" and continue to reset the attacker's OODA loop.

[Paladin]

Good video showing the reality of a knife attack.

The truth is a determined attacker can continue to attack for a time even if they are mortally wounded. Heart shots may not stop an attacker immediately. Not all head shots will stop a determined attacker. Being able to make CNS shots is a very valuable skill in these sorts of situations.

[Paladin]

If anyone isn't familiar with "Close Range Gunfighting", the training was made to handle this sort of situation:

[rm9792]

Even a shot into the brain is no guarantee of an immediate stop.

Nope, plenty of people shot in the brain that are still alive. I think only a brainstem shot is instant and that is hard to do on a moving target.

[eyedoc]

Even a shot into the brain is no guarantee of an immediate stop.

Nope, plenty of people shot in the brain that are still alive. I think only a brainstem shot is instant and that is hard to do on a moving target.

I have 4 patients who survived shooting themselves in the brain.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Although this video apparently involved an incident in Mexico, I've seen numerous videos of American LEOs dealing with people armed with edged or impact weapons. In the majority of cases these days, the officers are seen backing up. I haven't worn a badge in decades, but I'm curious if this is the training police cadets are receiving now in the academy and/or is this part of continuing education training. This is not how we were trained. I'm not talking about using available cover, I'm talking about retreating from an advancing threat, whether walking or running. Doing so sends a terrible message to the would-be murderer; i.e. that the officer is unwilling or reluctant to use justifiable deadly force. In my view, it increases the likelihood that deadly force will be necessary in addition to increasing the probability that the officer will be injured or killed.

What say our active LEOs?

Chas.

[mojo84]

The retreating officers is definitely concerning. I hope it doesn't transfer over to non-LEOs in the form of a duty to retreat.

[03Lightningrocks]

Although this video apparently involved an incident in Mexico, I've seen numerous videos of American LEOs dealing with people armed with edged or impact weapons. In the majority of cases these days, the officers are seen backing up. I haven't worn a badge in decades, but I'm curious if this is the training police cadets are receiving now in the academy and/or is this part of continuing education training. This is not how we were trained. I'm not talking about using available cover, I'm talking about retreating from an advancing threat, whether walking or running. Doing so sends a terrible message to the would-be murderer; i.e. that the officer is unwilling or reluctant to use justifiable deadly force. In my view, it increases the likelihood that deadly force will be necessary in addition to increasing the probability that the officer will be injured or killed.

What say our active LEOs?

Chas.

I would also like to hear from active LEOs on this. On an episode of Live PD there was an officer who was searching for a wanted suspect in a messy bedroom. The suspect was only a few feet away. The officer had his weapon at the ready but when the suspect popped up and lunged at him he got off a shot or three but was still stabbed.

[flintknapper]

Although this video apparently involved an incident in Mexico, I've seen numerous videos of American LEOs dealing with people armed with edged or impact weapons. In the majority of cases these days, the officers are seen backing up. I haven't worn a badge in decades, but I'm curious if this is the training police cadets are receiving now in the academy and/or is this part of continuing education training. This is not how we were trained. I'm not talking about using available cover, I'm talking about retreating from an advancing threat, whether walking or running. Doing so sends a terrible message to the would-be murderer; i.e. that the officer is unwilling or reluctant to use justifiable deadly force. In my view, it increases the likelihood that deadly force will be necessary in addition to increasing the probability that the officer will be injured or killed.

What say our active LEOs?

Chas.

I would also like to hear from active LEOs on this. On an episode of Live PD there was an officer who was searching for a wanted suspect in a messy bedroom. The suspect was only a few feet away. The officer had his weapon at the ready but when the suspect popped up and lunged at him he got off a shot or three but was still stabbed.

Yes, typically edged weapons are very difficult to defend against. Particularly if your response is with a firearm only. In the circumstance you cite the officer would not have had time to react in any other way.

Personally, I'd rather defend against a knife attack (already at contact distance) with club/baton or taser. But I can tell you that even the best trained personnel (once closed upon) will be lucky to avoid serious injury in a full on knife attack.

[AdioSS]

Just saw this posted yesterday: https://www.full30.com/embed/MDIxMjI3?f ... S-0_zO5X-Q

The officers backed up a LONG WAY. They did everything they could to not kill him, but I also imagine that part of this was to get to an area that was clear behind? Still, that situation got WAY TOO CLOSE.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just saw this posted yesterday: https://www.full30.com/embed/MDIxMjI3?f ... S-0_zO5X-Q

The officers backed up a LONG WAY. They did everything they could to not kill him, but I also imagine that part of this was to get to an area that was clear behind? Still, that situation got WAY TOO CLOSE.

The actions in that video are mind-boggling. There were so many tactically unsound actions displayed that I can't help but think it is the result of law enforcement fear of being prosecuted for using justifiable deadly force. After finally shooting the thug several times, the officer actually let him get up again to continue the attack, even though it was clear that he was not going to get verbal compliance. The officer being attacked actually holstered his handgun while the thug made his final attack after having been shot. I cannot imagine what he was thinking to go hands on with a knife-wielding attacker. He lost his command presence when he retreated and kept saying "please" multiple times.

I know some younger folks, especially those who have never been in law enforcement, may interpret my comments as an example of pride or a macho attitude, but it is not. Once a potential attacker perceives you are fearful and/or unwilling to use your handgun, the likelihood of an attack goes up exponentially. That's why a command presence is to critical.

I couldn't tell of the officer was injured or not, but he is very lucky to be alive. Scenes like these make me sick.

Chas.

[flintknapper]

Just saw this posted yesterday: https://www.full30.com/embed/MDIxMjI3?f ... S-0_zO5X-Q

The officers backed up a LONG WAY. They did everything they could to not kill him, but I also imagine that part of this was to get to an area that was clear behind? Still, that situation got WAY TOO CLOSE.

The actions in that video are mind-boggling. There were so many tactically unsound actions displayed that I can't help but think it is the result of law enforcement fear of being prosecuted for using justifiable deadly force. After finally shooting the thug several times, the officer actually let him get up again to continue the attack, even though it was clear that he was not going to get verbal compliance. The officer being attacked actually holstered his handgun while the thug made his final attack after having been shot. I cannot imagine what he was thinking to go hands on with a knife-wielding attacker. He lost his command presence when he retreated and kept saying "please" multiple times.

I know some younger folks, especially those who have never been in law enforcement, may interpret my comments as an example of pride or a macho attitude, but it is not. Once a potential attacker perceives you are fearful and/or unwilling to use your handgun, the likelihood of an attack goes up exponentially. That's why a command presence is to critical.

I couldn't tell of the officer was injured or not, but he is very lucky to be alive. Scenes like these make me sick.

Chas.

^^^^^

Could not agree more with your assessment. Spot on.....every point.

[ELB]

I dunno what they teach cops, but every bit of SD gun/knife/empty hands training I had spent a lot of time training us not to back up. Psychological aspects aside, it's dangerous because you can't see the threat and look behind you at the same time. And if you don't look back, you can trip over stuff. Training venues are usually flat, but the real world has curbs and hydrants and bushes and stuff laying around to fall over. I was taught to get out of the assailant's chosen kill zone by, if possible, moving forward at a approx. 45 degree either side of the line of attack, or move sideways if possible. It gets one off of the initial line of fire and forces the assailant to re-orient his aim, his thinking, and his body, and puts him in reactive mod.