Austin Gun Show Troubles?

[HankB]

If they're now instituting asinine restrictions like the above, they're going to stay small. And I won't be making any contributions to their business model by attending.

It's not the gun show promoter's doing. Staying away will help Austin PD accomplish its goal of ridding Austin of gun shows.

Chas.

Charles, please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting what's been posted, but it sounds like some bureaucrat(s) simply made up a rule, issued an edict on their own (nonexistent) authority to legislate, and the promoter is following along even though there's no force of law behind it.

If there IS force of law, then you're right, it's not the promoter's fault.

Otherwise, it would seem he does bear some responsibility for implementation of the policy.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

austinrealtor:

Thanks for the report.

Your observations seem to indicate a rather unfocused effort on the
part of APD:

They are not allowing any non-FFL's
but
they also are not posting 30.06 or having LEO's at the entry???

You would think if they were trying to eliminate non-FFL's at the show,
that they would also be posting 30.06 and having LEO's doing the zipties.

They are exerting some control on the one hand, and abdicating their
usual duties on the other. Things that make you go hmmmmm.....

SIA

[Charles L. Cotton]

If they're now instituting asinine restrictions like the above, they're going to stay small. And I won't be making any contributions to their business model by attending.

It's not the gun show promoter's doing. Staying away will help Austin PD accomplish its goal of ridding Austin of gun shows.

Chas.

Charles, please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting what's been posted, but it sounds like some bureaucrat(s) simply made up a rule, issued an edict on their own (nonexistent) authority to legislate, and the promoter is following along even though there's no force of law behind it.

If there IS force of law, then you're right, it's not the promoter's fault.

Otherwise, it would seem he does bear some responsibility for implementation of the policy.

The building owner is understandably concerned about the threat of losing the building. Sorry, I can't say more at this time.

Chas.

[HankB]

the gun show promoter does not own the building and the building owner is understandably concerned about the threat of losing the building. Sorry, I can't say more at this time.

So there's more going on behind the scenes than wer're aware of . . . including (presumably) some legal wrangling that can't/shouldn't be made public yet.

Hmmmm . . .

If and when things are finally resolved, please post (as Paul Harvey would say) "The REST of the story."

[Bob Landry]

It will be interesting to see how our imported Kommie Kalifornia Police Chief handles the fallout from this one with no local, state, or Federal stautes to back it up. I think the guy came here with the intention of writing his own rules and throwing all of his liberal garbage against the wall to see what would stick. Austin has always had the capability of purging garbage ideology like this at election time, but it never happens, probably never will.
So, for the time being, make contact at the show, walk across the street, and complete the transaction. Pretty simple short term fix.
I hope Charles keeps us updated on this one.

[A-R]

Catching up on this thread. A few comments:

Charles, please set me straight if I'm misinterpreting what's been posted, but it sounds like some bureaucrat(s) simply made up a rule, issued an edict on their own (nonexistent) authority to legislate, and the promoter is following along even though there's no force of law behind it.

If there IS force of law, then you're right, it's not the promoter's fault.

Otherwise, it would seem he does bear some responsibility for implementation of the policy.

Hank, even if there is no "force of law" behind this, that's asking a lot of gun show promotor to deliberately disobey something demanded of him by APD and ATF. Sort of asking for trouble, itching to be a "test case". Something that is not nearly as easy to do for real (real arrest, real jail time - even if completely unlawful) as it is to talk about. None of us here - except possibly Charles - know what really happened or who really said what to who. Let's give the promotor the benefit of the doubt until we learn more.

That being said, the show was incredibly lame. Even with a discounted $5 admission (instead of $7 original asking price) it certainly wasn't worth it. But, this may or may not be the "goal" of APD and ATF. Make a stink just long enough to drive away vendors and customers, then let this show slowly fade away. Again, this is just pure speculation on my part. But I don't blame the show promotor (unless, of course, you want to go way off the deep end and suggest this is all some elaborate publicity stunt and APD/ATF had nothing to do with it *adjusts tin foil hat* )

austinrealtor:

Thanks for the report.

Your observations seem to indicate a rather unfocused effort on the part of APD:

They are not allowing any non-FFL's but they also are not posting 30.06 or having LEO's at the entry???

You would think if they were trying to eliminate non-FFL's at the show, that they would also be posting 30.06 and having LEO's doing the zipties.

They are exerting some control on the one hand, and abdicating their usual duties on the other. Things that make you go hmmmmm.....

SIA

SIA, I guess I don't see the direct connection between APD trying to eliminate non-FFL dealers whether or not a gun show posts 30.06. I've never been to a "Texas Gun Show" before, but apparently this is same promotor who used to have show in south Austin. Was there 30.06 posted at that show? I think perhaps the lack of 30.06 is just the difference in show promotors? Saxet posted 30.06; Texas gun shows does not?

the gun show promoter does not own the building and the building owner is understandably concerned about the threat of losing the building. Sorry, I can't say more at this time.

So there's more going on behind the scenes than wer're aware of . . . including (presumably) some legal wrangling that can't/shouldn't be made public yet.

Hmmmm . . .

If and when things are finally resolved, please post (as Paul Harvey would say) "The REST of the story."

I really want to know the details when they are fit for print. I'm very interested to know how much pressure TSRA is able apply to this situation to ensure that the law and justice prevails, and not the whims of the ATF and APD.

Would like to see some publicity about this in the media, though I doubt that's likely to happen. The Statesman is very harsh on APD and sensationalistic in its coverage after any officer-involved shooting, but I doubt they will jump to cover a story of official oppression by APD when law-abiding citizens are the victims. I actually tried to pass along these events as a "news tip" to an old colleague of mine who works at Statesman. But haven't heard back from this friend, did not I see anything in the paper about it this morning, nor do I expect to.

If anyone has the information or a link to it readily available, I'd love to know what is required to run/promote a gun show? What's to stop all of us TexasCHLForum.com Austin-area members from agreeing to meet somewhere and have gun swap meet? I'm guessing once you rent out a space and start charging admission to general public, then the local authorities will start wanting permits, fees, taxes etc.

[tomc]

Catching up on this thread. A few comments: ...

I really want to know the details when they are fit for print. I'm very interested to know how much pressure TSRA is able apply to this situation to ensure that the law and justice prevails, and not the whims of the ATF and APD.

Would like to see some publicity about this in the media, though I doubt that's likely to happen. The Statesman is very harsh on APD and sensationalistic in its coverage after any officer-involved shooting, but I doubt they will jump to cover a story of official oppression by APD when law-abiding citizens are the victims. I actually tried to pass along these events as a "news tip" to an old colleague of mine who works at Statesman. But haven't heard back from this friend, did not I see anything in the paper about it this morning, nor do I expect to.

If anyone has the information or a link to it readily available, I'd love to know what is required to run/promote a gun show? What's to stop all of us TexasCHLForum.com Austin-area members from agreeing to meet somewhere and have gun swap meet? I'm guessing once you rent out a space and start charging admission to general public, then the local authorities will start wanting permits, fees, taxes etc.

A little more info here: http://waronguns.blogspot.com/ - "Messin with Texas" thread
(exerpt: The Texas Gun Shows have been “ordered” by the Austin PD and BATF to allow no setups for gun sales from non-FFLs. All individual sales will have to go through licensed dealers.

Chasing some stuff down, it seems that HEB owns the building they use and the APD and BATF have gotten to them—threatening with the possibility of suit if there are sales on their property for non background checked transactions. Thus it’s the “landlord” not LE who is calling for the restrictions.)

[Shorts]

Catching up on this thread. A few comments: ...

I really want to know the details when they are fit for print. I'm very interested to know how much pressure TSRA is able apply to this situation to ensure that the law and justice prevails, and not the whims of the ATF and APD.

Would like to see some publicity about this in the media, though I doubt that's likely to happen. The Statesman is very harsh on APD and sensationalistic in its coverage after any officer-involved shooting, but I doubt they will jump to cover a story of official oppression by APD when law-abiding citizens are the victims. I actually tried to pass along these events as a "news tip" to an old colleague of mine who works at Statesman. But haven't heard back from this friend, did not I see anything in the paper about it this morning, nor do I expect to.

If anyone has the information or a link to it readily available, I'd love to know what is required to run/promote a gun show? What's to stop all of us TexasCHLForum.com Austin-area members from agreeing to meet somewhere and have gun swap meet? I'm guessing once you rent out a space and start charging admission to general public, then the local authorities will start wanting permits, fees, taxes etc.

A little more info here: http://waronguns.blogspot.com/ - "Messin with Texas" thread
(exerpt: The Texas Gun Shows have been “ordered” by the Austin PD and BATF to allow no setups for gun sales from non-FFLs. All individual sales will have to go through licensed dealers.

Chasing some stuff down, it seems that HEB owns the building they use and the APD and BATF have gotten to them—threatening with the possibility of suit if there are sales on their property for non background checked transactions. Thus it’s the “landlord” not LE who is calling for the restrictions.)

What kind of suit can be filed?

[A-R]

[A little more info here: http://waronguns.blogspot.com/ - "Messin with Texas" thread
(exerpt: The Texas Gun Shows have been “ordered” by the Austin PD and BATF to allow no setups for gun sales from non-FFLs. All individual sales will have to go through licensed dealers.

Chasing some stuff down, it seems that HEB owns the building they use and the APD and BATF have gotten to them—threatening with the possibility of suit if there are sales on their property for non background checked transactions. Thus it’s the “landlord” not LE who is calling for the restrictions.)

Thanks Tom. Followed link from that blog to a 4-page thread about this situation on AR15.com http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 152&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WARNING: the language used in the linked AR15.com thread gets quite, uh, "spicy"

Found this interesting - though admittedly less-than-reliable - post on page 3 of the thread:

Some info I received. Kinda puts this whole thing in prospective. If true, APD has declared war on Gun Shows in Austin. Would also provide juice to other cities if it works.


i heard from someone who spoke to the show promoter. show promoter was told by Austin PD that they are acting on some sort of public nuisance city ordinance. their "data" or gun traces or what not show that a large percentage of guns taken off of the streets in Austin allegedly have come from the Austin gun show, sold hand-to-hand or via "private collectors" with no background checks. not that any of this is probably true, but the PD believes, or claims to have data, that the illegal guns on the streets of Austin are coming from the gun show. so, they are acting on a "public nuisance" ordinance that supposedly will allow them to simply shut down the gun show if they can get a court order or something. insofar as arrests, who knows. my friend set up at the show last night and said that the venue is 25% full only and that alot of dealers or "non-FFL dealers" or what not backed out due to the undue attention they will be getting. also there is rumor that the State Comptroller's Office may be showing up to see who is delinquent on sales tax, or who doesn't have a Texas Resale Certificate at all.

looks like APD is using the muscle of other agencies to make it uncomfortable for anyone to operate an Austin show which will most likely result in the show dying by itself. with low attendance and strict "rules" in place, that, are simply made up and illegal, the APD hopes to shut down the show.

so, anyone seen doing a hand-to-hand, while 100% legal, will probably be spoken to, or at least videoed, and then this will be used to shut down the gun show there. personally i think APD is clearly overstepping their boundaries, but they seem to think that due to their public nuisance ordinance they all of a sudden can mandate what can and cannot happen in a gun show.

This info is second hand and I have not verified it. But the source I got it from has provided reliable info in the past.

So now you're reading this third hand I guess.

Also another posting claiming two people were arrested for making non-FFL exchanges. But that one sounded even less legitimate/verifiable.

Really itching to get some legitimate info from Charles on this soon.

[A-R]

For what it's worth, here's a snapshot from my iPhone of the sign/flyer posted on front entrance to the gun show Saturday morning and handed to each visitor.

[juggernaut]

If they're now instituting asinine restrictions like the above, they're going to stay small. And I won't be making any contributions to their business model by attending.

It's not the gun show promoter's doing. Staying away will help Austin PD accomplish its goal of ridding Austin of gun shows.

If private sales are not welcome then I'm not going. I don't care why.

[OldCannon]

It's not the gun show promoter's doing. Staying away will help Austin PD accomplish its goal of ridding Austin of gun shows.

If private sales are not welcome then I'm not going. I don't care why.

This is precisely the point.

The property owner has established rules that contravene one of the great reasons for gun shows, so "vote with your wallet", and let the people that are selling there that you won't continue doing business with them if they support these draconian (and pointless) policies.

I respect your opinion, Charles, but whether this supports APDs political agenda, IMHO, isn't relevant. APD isn't solving anything by forcing this issue, but fighting back or attempting to reason with the APD police chief seems like spitting in the wind. Sure, you could fight it, but in the end, this is a private owner that's setting the policy (honestly, for all we know, they may be using the APD and BATFE as scapegoats as cover for their own anti-gun agenda)

Frankly, our collective effort should go into finding a new venue, perhaps in WIlliamson Co., because lets all be honest here, the Crockett Center is an awful place for gun shows anyway.

[HankB]

. . . it seems that HEB owns the building they use and the APD and BATF have gotten to them—threatening with the possibility of suit if there are sales on their property for non background checked transactions. Thus it’s the “landlord” not LE who is calling for the restrictions.)

The power of the landlord would be limited by the terms of the lease - one party can't unilaterally change the terms of the lease.

I remember when there was a regular gun show at the Coliseum at the old state fairgrounds - the City of Austin tried to terminate the lease, but a court stopped them, and the gun shows continued until the lease was up. Same principle here.

Of course, if the promoter is just renting the space on a monthly basis, that's a different story . . . and of course, once the lease is up for renewal, all bets are off. (I heard landlord problems were the reason the SAXET shows left Austin.)

[marksiwel]

Lets start a letter writing campaign to the Austin PD, and out state Reps, Gov Perry ect

[boomerang]

So, for the time being, make contact at the show, walk across the street, and complete the transaction. Pretty simple short term fix.

If you're going to do the transaction across the street, why not make contact across the street and avoid the farce completely?