Austin Gun Show Troubles?

[ghostrider]

>So with all this hassle that APD is giving the gun show guys, can't the gun show just relocate to Round Rock and deprive
>the City of Austin of all the sales tax paid on weapons?

yes. But perhaps driving all gun shows out of the city is the goal, and that would just help them achieve that goal.

[frazzled]

>So with all this hassle that APD is giving the gun show guys, can't the gun show just relocate to Round Rock and deprive
>the City of Austin of all the sales tax paid on weapons?

yes. But perhaps driving all gun shows out of the city is the goal, and that would just help them achieve that goal.

I'm torn on that prospect. Clearly we should be out to protect all Texan's rights in this area. On the other hand this is Austin. They elected that council and hired that California police chief. They made their bed now lie in it.

Williamson County is just up the road. As the ancient Buddha said in response to the "Keep Austin Weird" logo:
"Keep Round Rock Normal"

[A-R]

I'm torn on that prospect. Clearly we should be out to protect all Texan's rights in this area. On the other hand this is Austin. They elected that council and hired that California police chief. They made their bed now lie in it.

All gun owners in this area shouldn't be made to suffer because of who a bunch of our neighbors voted for. I live in Cedar Park and thus can't vote in Austin city elections, but I wouldn't vote for any current city council person or the mayor and along with many local Realtors pushed hard to convince Austinites not to vote for them (for other reasons, like government takeover of your homeowner rights in the name of saving the environment and going green).

Kicking all Austinites to the curb and saying they deserve it is same as doing so to residents of Chicago or Wshington DC who stood up and fought for our rights.

Williamson County is just up the road. As the ancient Buddha said in response to the "Keep Austin Weird" logo: "Keep Round Rock Normal"

or try Pflugerville: "Between a Rock and a weird place."

[frazzled]

I'm torn on that prospect. Clearly we should be out to protect all Texan's rights in this area. On the other hand this is Austin. They elected that council and hired that California police chief. They made their bed now lie in it.

All gun owners in this area shouldn't be made to suffer because of who a bunch of our neighbors voted for. I live in Cedar Park and thus can't vote in Austin city elections, but I wouldn't vote for any current city council person or the mayor and along with many local Realtors pushed hard to convince Austinites not to vote for them (for other reasons, like government takeover of your homeowner rights in the name of saving the environment and going green).

Kicking all Austinites to the curb and saying they deserve it is same as doing so to residents of Chicago or Wshington DC who stood up and fought for our rights.

You're correct. I am just venting frustration at the antics in "Berkeley East."

Williamson County is just up the road. As the ancient Buddha said in response to the "Keep Austin Weird" logo: "Keep Round Rock Normal"

or try Pflugerville: "Between a Rock and a weird place."

[FlynJay]

There was a lot of traffic in the forum about the same time I posed a question - maybe it was overlooked, maybe it was a dumb question, either way, any comments are appreciated.

Were the Saxet and Texas Gun shows both held and the same HEB location? If they were then Austin's analogy works. However, if not then I would amend his analogy to be a different hotel entirely where the illegal or questionable activities took place.

For my clarification, is it illegal for me, a private citizen, to sell to a felon or is is it just illegal for the felon to purchase or possess a gun? Never mind all the caveats of which state I'm in or what kind of felony it was and all that. I just mean in general. I wonder since I don't have access to or the ability to do an NICS or background check on someone or apparently the requirement. I can understand that I might be in trouble if I knowingly do this, but if I don't know the person is a felon and I'm not required to check will I still be in trouble?

It is illegal for you to knowingly sell to a felon. Before I sell to anyone, I ask to see a Texas driver's license, and I ask if they are legally able to purchase a firearm in Texas. If they have a problem with me taking down their name and TX DL # then no deal.

I don't want to change my whole stance on the current rights to keep, bear and sell arms, but this may be the problem and I hope someone can set me straight on the whole thing. As gun owners we should look down on anyone selling a gun to anyone not allowed to own one, be it a felon, a mental case, or a minor. If I don't ask, I don't know... so is that legal for the seller? To say, "Oh, I didn't know" would get you off scot free??

Maybe it should state a little more like "knowingly or irresponsibly" that way they take responsibility for who the gun is sold to. Even if it was done in the parking lot or in your driveway.

To directly answer your question here is the applicable law. Take note of the "intentionally or knowingly".

PC 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person
knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered intends
to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an unlawful act;
(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers
to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any
firearm, club, or illegal knife;
(3) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a firearm or ammunition
for a firearm to any person who is intoxicated;
(4) knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any
person who has been convicted of a felony before the fifth anniversary
of the later of the following dates:
(A) the person's release from confinement following conviction
of the felony; or
(B) the person's release from supervision under community supervision,
parole, or mandatory supervision following conviction of the
felony;
(5) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person
knowing that an active protective order is directed to the person to
whom the handgun is to be delivered; or
(6) knowingly purchases, rents, leases, or receives as a loan or
gift from another a handgua while an active protective order is directed
to the actor.
(b) In this section:
(1) "Intoxicated" means substantial impairment of mental or physical
capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body.
(2) "Active protective order means a protective order issued
under Tie 4, Family Code, that is in effect. The term does not include
a temporary protective order issued before the court holds a hearing
on the matter.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection
(a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person
having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the
sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale. the parent or person
having legal custody had given effective consent.
(d) An offense under thii section is a Class A misdemeanor, except
that an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail felony if the
weapon that is the subject of the offense is a handgun.

[A-R]

Well this guy has a different take ("no villians here") on this whole mess. One with which I obviously disagree strongly.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-G ... er-picture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Austin gun show update: Interviews reveal bigger picture
January 20, 11:39 AM
Howard Nemerov
Austin Gun Rights Examiner

Rumors have been swirling that Austin, Texas gun shows were threatened with closure unless they accepted a local rule limiting gun sales to licensed dealers only. The Texas Gun Show home page contains this announcement:

Your 2nd Ammendment [sic] rights are under attack!

Your Action is Needed NOW!

VENDOR NOTICE-AUSTIN SHOW ONLY:
At the Direction of the Austin Police Department and the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms,
ONLY LICENSED FFL DEALERS
will be allowed to set up and sell firearms
at the N. Austin Show Location.

But before you grab a pitchfork and head over to Austin police headquarters, interviews of the “interested parties” indicate further consideration may be valuable.
Darwin Boedeker is the Texas Gun Shows (TGS) promoter. In a phone interview, he said that last Thursday, January 14, there was a meeting with Austin PD (APD), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the building lessee (HEB) and Andrew Perkel of Austin Market Place, who subleases the building from HEB and supports TGS.
At the meeting, Boedeker said the APD read off a “long list” of nuisance violations to the HEB representative. When Boedeker told everybody that these activities happened while another promoter hosted the gun show at that location–TGS began hosting shows November 2009–nobody else knew this.
Boedeker claimed that ATF and APD “intimidated” HEB into instituting a requirement that only dealers with a Federal Firearms License (FFL) can sell guns. Boedeker said APD invited the HEB representative “knowing he would crack.” That left two choices: cancel last weekend’s show on one day’s notice, or abide by FFL rule. Boedeker said that attendance was “horrible” last weekend, with 50 empty vendor tables and low attendance. He also said that 90% of those complaining about the new rule thought TGS was to blame.
Boedeker is now faced with the option of finding another building “where they support constitutional rights.”
When asked about concealed carry at the show, Boedeker said he doesn’t allow it for safety reasons. Except for law enforcement, he requires every firearm to be unloaded and secured with a safety tie. He cites this policy as the reason his shows have experienced no accidental discharges.
The gun show promoter said he supports the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, yet bans concealed carry at his shows, citing safety concerns. In fairness, there are exceptions among gun owners when it comes to safe gun handling, and TGS has a right to protect their business from unnecessary liability.

According to their January 19 press release, Austin Police Department said they worked with federal immigration authorities last year, targeting illegal gun trafficking at local gun shows:
Virtually all of these sales to prohibited persons were made by unlicensed dealers or private citizens, both inside the gun show and in the parking lot of the gun show.
[Note: “Prohibited persons” are defined in U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, section 922, subsection (d).]
Because of the “recurring activity” at the North Austin location, the APD Nuisance Abatement Unit got involved.
Due to the history of criminal activity at the gun show, the Nuisance Abatement Unit scheduled a meeting between the property lessee (HEB Grocery), the building sub-lessee (Andrew Perkel a.k.a Austin Market Place), the event promoter (Darwin Boedecker-Texas Gun Shows) and ATF.
Corporal Scott Perry is a Public Information Officer for the APD. When asked if they somehow forced HEB to institute the FFL rule, he said no.
When there’s a nuisance abatement issue, APD gathers all interested parties together and explains the next step in the abatement process. However, the final decision was up to HEB. “We never put any stipulations onto anything,” said Perry, “we only asked that illegal aliens and convicted felons stop buying guns.”
Perry says that when TGS and HEB signed their original contract, HEB was not under direct threat, but was concerned about the nuisance issue. While TGS was not the promoter during last year’s investigation which led to a possible abatement proceeding, Perry said that state nuisance abatement laws work by address.
Perry said HEB came into the meeting planning to void the contract and evict the gun show. The sub-lessee and TGS asked if they could work out a compromise. At this point, HEB asked for recommendations from the APD. HEB then reminded TGS that their original contract contained the FFL rule. After agreeing to comply with the existing contract terms, HEB agreed to give it another try.

Michael Reyes is the Resident Agent in Charge of the Austin office for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). According to Reyes, an ATF agent was present at last Thursday’s meeting. When asked for input by HEB, the agent said that most criminal arrests at past shows were due to illegal gun sales by unlicensed dealers to prohibited persons. Agent Reyes noted one example where an illegal alien bought a gun at the show.
(Reyes wanted to make it clear that it is the buyer’s responsibility to be honest; the seller isn’t held accountable if the buyer lied. He also stressed that it is “perfectly legal” for two private parties to engage in such commerce, and that his agency has no intention of enforcing any sort of illegal ban on private sales.)
The HEB representative asked if anything could be done to stop such illegal activity. Both ATF and APD told him that when prospective buyers purchase through a gun dealer with a Federal Firearms License (FFL), the seller performs a background check before completing the sale. ATF told him that a “large majority of the time” this stops a prohibited purchase.
HEB then decided to add a condition to the rental agreement, which Texas Gun Shows agreed to, limiting gun sales to FFLs. Reyes said ATF and APD did not push for these terms and didn’t threaten to shut down the show if TGS didn’t do this but without agreeing to HEB’s stipulation, TGS would have lost the space.
As APD noted in their press release:
At the conclusion of the meeting the lessee agreed that the recommendations should be followed and instructed their sub-lessee to follow the recommendations. The sub-lessee then informed the event promoter to implement the recommendations at the next show.
This agreement was, in the final analysis, between private parties.
If you want to make a case that law-abiding gun owners are being punished because of illegal gun sales to prohibited persons, then perhaps HEB is the place to start, since they made the final decision.
This author is acquainted with many law enforcement professionals, and while there are exceptions, they generally want to do good work and go home to their families at night.
One thing appears true: Since the FFL rule was implemented by HEB, the wording of the TGS announcement on their web site is overstated.
There are no clear-cut villains and victims here. In the final analysis, you the reader need to decide the best course of action. Facts, not rhetoric, help make educated decisions.

[A-R]

Texas Gun Shows is taking donations on their web site to help them with legal fees as they fight for their (and our) 2A rights.

give 'em heck!

http://texasgunshows.net/default.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[A-R]

Also an updated from http://www.tsra.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (I hope this isn't a sign TSRA is giving up on this one already ) ...

Austin Gun Shows Under Attack? - UPDATE
TSRA continues to receive reports that the Austin Police Department and the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives attempted to stop all private firearm transactions at an Austin gun show last weekend. These reports refer to a decision reached in a Thursday meeting attended by law enforcement agencies, property owners and managers, and the gun show promoter in question and resulted in a self-imposed regulation that was not based upon a change in city, state, or federal regulations. Any such city ordinance could violate the state's firearms preemption law.

The Texas State Rifle Association, in conjunction with the NRA, will continue to research and investigate this matter--including an examination whether this venue was unfairly targeted as a nuisance by local police or federal enforcement agencies.

Please check your TSRA membership status and check your voter registration. Keep both up to date!

[Big Tuna]

What's the difference between private sales at a gun show and private sales posted here?

[Bonc_CHL]

There is no difference except we don't advertise where we will be selling out firearms like a gun show does.
If we make a sale in a Walmart parking lot not everyone around knows what we are there for.

[OldSchool]

What's the difference between private sales at a gun show and private sales posted here?

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me as if the people who sell here are a lot more careful about not selling to the wrong (i.e., dangerous) people....

[marksiwel]

What's the difference between private sales at a gun show and private sales posted here?

Nothing, Really.

You and Me at most Gun Shows in Texas
Me: wanna buy my gun?
You: Yeah
Me: 500 Bucks
You: Ok
Me: You arent prohibited from own a gun are you?
You: Nope
You give me money I give you gun transaction over.

You and me at the Wal Mart parking lot
Me: wanna buy my gun?
You: Yeah
Me: 500 Bucks
You: Ok
Me: You arent prohibited from own a gun are you?
You: Nope
You give me money I give you gun transaction over.

[joe817]

The NRA has made a comment on this:

"Wednesday, January 20, 2010
NRA has received many inquiries about reports that the Austin, Texas Police Department and the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives tried to stop private gun sales at an Austin gun show. "

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=5313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article doesn't say much more than the TSRA site does. But they are investigating.

[GaryAdrian]

I buy all my weapons new. I only sell my old weapons to friends I know well and Family. I have sold 1 S&W mod 19 at a gun show, in the parking lot. It took 20 seconds total.
Buyer: "What is it and How much?"
That was 30 years ago and I still have misgivings about selling that gun. It was my "Service Revolver" I carried when I was a Deputy Constable. i REGRET THAT i DID IT.
But that's just me.

[marksiwel]

I buy all my weapons new. I only sell my old weapons to friends I know well and Family. I have sold 1 S&W mod 19 at a gun show, in the parking lot. It took 20 seconds total.
Buyer: "What is it and How much?"
That was 30 years ago and I still have misgivings about selling that gun. It was my "Service Revolver" I carried when I was a Deputy Constable. i REGRET THAT i DID IT.
But that's just me.

I just cant imagine selling any of my Firearms, ever.
Even my terrible P22 that I hate, I just cant part with it.