"Zero-tolerance" policy on guns extends to private property.

[MotherBear]

In a letter obtained by WAVY.com, school principal Matthew Delaney found that the "children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop." Delaney states in the letter that one child "was only 10 feet from the bus stop, and ran from the shots being fired, but was still hit."


Typical twisting of the truth. The boys were shooting at other kids waiting for the bus. Non participants to the fun and games.
A little different than innocent playing in their own yard. they were shooting "outside" of their yard at others not playing with them.

I'm not condoning the kids' behavior. Their parents need to deal with it appropriately. If the pellets were leaving their private property, then it could also be a police matter. But I have a problem with schools using their authority to punish actions that don't fall under their jurisdiction. Not school hours, not school property, not a school activity... not a school problem.

[MasterOfNone]

In a letter obtained by WAVY.com, school principal Matthew Delaney found that the "children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop." Delaney states in the letter that one child "was only 10 feet from the bus stop, and ran from the shots being fired, but was still hit."


Typical twisting of the truth. The boys were shooting at other kids waiting for the bus. Non participants to the fun and games.
A little different than innocent playing in their own yard. they were shooting "outside" of their yard at others not playing with them.

I'm not condoning the kids' behavior. Their parents need to deal with it appropriately. If the pellets were leaving their private property, then it could also be a police matter. But I have a problem with schools using their authority to punish actions that don't fall under their jurisdiction. Not school hours, not school property, not a school activity... not a school problem.

Does behavior "near" (10 feet away from) a bus stop make it a school issue? I could see an argument that shooting people AT the bus stop may fall under the school's authority to suspend. But to me, "near" the bus stop is no different than carrying concealed "near" a 30.06 or 51% location.

[JP Mewley]

The problem you run into when trying to appeal a school decision is getting a prompt hearing or appeal to the matter. By the time you can get "your day in court" the suspension period has generally already run. You might win, but your kid has missed school or the special event and will be behind scholastically.

As long as the school district controls the calendar or can successfully stall, they win and you and your kid lose, no matter what. Sadly, we are seeing this stall tactic used, not only by school districts, more often than not.

[Piney]

I recall being told that the school is "responsible" for the student once they are on their way to or from a school. This discussion came about several years back when one of the kids was found "loitering" at a convenience store on the way to school. We were called by the school's Officer. Nothing took place as one would assume should certianly be the case, but the discussion was held.

I didnt find any citations from Texas, yet. Here's one from Montana as an example of similar legislation--

Montana law provides that a student is subject to the control and authority of the school once the student leaves her or his house on the way to school.

"A pupil shall: (a) comply with the policies of the trustees and the rules of the school that the pupil attends; (b) pursue the required course of instruction; (c) submit to the authority of the teachers, principal, and district superintendent of the district; and (d) be subject to the control and authority of the teachers, principal, and district superintendent while the pupil is in school or on school premises, on the way to and from school, or during intermission or recess." Mont. Code Ann. §20-5-201(d)

[MotherBear]

Does behavior "near" (10 feet away from) a bus stop make it a school issue? I could see an argument that shooting people AT the bus stop may fall under the school's authority to suspend. But to me, "near" the bus stop is no different than carrying concealed "near" a 30.06 or 51% location.

I don't believe the school has any authority over or ownership of the bus stop itself. When I was a kid my bus stop was the end of my driveway. Did my parents cede control of the end of our driveway to the school district? Or if it's on public right of way, it's land belonging to the city or county -- do they grant control of it to the school district?

I think the school's most logical course of action -- assuming the parents weren't helpful -- would be to call local law enforcement. If city ordinances require that any pellets shot remain within a person's private property, that law was being broken and there's the recourse for it. As a parent I'd prefer the district talked to me first and gave me the opportunity to deal with the problem myself, but I'm aware that not all parents could or would do so. At that point, I think it necessarily becomes a police matter. No one can deny the police have the right to enforce city ordinances, and that ordinance sounds fair. Enforcement of it would solve the school district's problem of students at the bus stop being hit by pellets.

I recall being told that the school is "responsible" for the student once they are on their way to or from a school. This discussion came about several years back when one of the kids was found "loitering" at a convenience store on the way to school. We were called by the school's Officer. Nothing took place as one would assume should certianly be the case, but the discussion was held.

That would be very disturbing to me. I'm definitely not a fan of the law in Montana that you cited. When I was in high school I didn't always go straight to or from school, and I may well have done things that were perfectly acceptable behaviors outside of school but not allowed under school policy. I gave friends rides on occasion, went to work, ran errands for my mom, went to church events... at what point was I no longer on my way to or from school? Again, I wouldn't send my kids to public school anyway, but if I were inclined to do so laws like that would definitely give me pause.

[jerry_r60]

In a letter obtained by WAVY.com, school principal Matthew Delaney found that the "children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop." Delaney states in the letter that one child "was only 10 feet from the bus stop, and ran from the shots being fired, but was still hit."


Typical twisting of the truth. The boys were shooting at other kids waiting for the bus. Non participants to the fun and games.
A little different than innocent playing in their own yard. they were shooting "outside" of their yard at others not playing with them.

This seems to be in dispute. There are also witnesses stating the boys never left the yard (70 yards away, airsoft doesnt' have that range).

Also some new info. The news had to get a privacy waiver from the mother to get the schools side of the story. The school then used that privacy release to release all of the boys private diciplenary records to the public.

http://www.wavy.com/news/local/va-beach ... ne-too-far" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mamabearCali]

I was (barely) educated in that school system. They are very good at Covering their posteriors and making sure that if someone is going to get the short end of the stick it sure wont be them. If you did not stick up for yourself and bring your parents in and throw a fit in general the administration did not give a rats tail about you or your education.

I remember I tried for two years to get into a gifted class for English because I was not learning anything in the regular classes. This was in high school. They went back to a test they gave me in fourth grade right after I had moved and attempted to keep me out of the gifted class. I finally got in my junior year, after passing 10th grade English with a 99%! It was one of the toughest and best classes I took in high school. I should find Mrs. Sadler and buy her a drink of choice because she is the reason I can write coherent sentences today. I got B in that class, but I worked harder for that B than I did for all the other a's I got the rest of my high school English years.

Our neighbor (tall skinny dork with glasses type) was being pestered by a local sewer rat. They had adjoining lockers. Our neighbor requested the person please keep his hands to himself, and was rewarded with a punch to the face that broke his glasses and bloodied his nose. The school system suspended both of them for a week even though our neighbor had done nothing wrong but be harassed and then assaulted. The school said they would not spend the time to find out what happened. That they had better things to do. Now lets see a fellow who had a record as long as my leg vs the geek who had never so much turned in his homework late. I am sure that would have taken a whole lot of investigation to figure out what happened.

Two stories to illustrate the incompetency and idiocy of this particular school system.

[jerry_r60]

Now another Zero Tolerance suspension, for a 2" gunshaped keychain.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1471474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And another suspension for shooting a nerf gun at school after being asked to bring it by the teacher for a probability lesson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1363552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MotherBear]

Our neighbor (tall skinny dork with glasses type) was being pestered by a local sewer rat. They had adjoining lockers. Our neighbor requested the person please keep his hands to himself, and was rewarded with a punch to the face that broke his glasses and bloodied his nose. The school system suspended both of them for a week even though our neighbor had done nothing wrong but be harassed and then assaulted. The school said they would not spend the time to find out what happened. That they had better things to do. Now lets see a fellow who had a record as long as my leg vs the geek who had never so much turned in his homework late. I am sure that would have taken a whole lot of investigation to figure out what happened.

Sad to say that seems to be the norm. I was just talking to my next-door neighbor about how her son is doing in school this year and she said he's had issues like that. In fact, he got suspended longer than the three guys who jumped on him. I suppose it's possible he provoked something, but all indicators I've seen say he's a good kid. He calls me ma'am, he and his adult sister bake treats for my kids, he helps his mom take care of his baby nieces when he's home... doesn't seem like much of a thug to me. His mom was actually asking me about what I had to do to be able to homeschool my son, because she's really displeased with the sort of issues they're having.

Something sort of related to zero-tolerance policies is the issue I've seen with inhalers. I don't know much about the drugs in those things, but is there even a black market for them? When I was in high school one of my friends had severe asthma but was required to keep her inhaler at the school nurse's office. I remember one morning before school we were both in the bathroom when I heard a "thud" from her stall. I had to crawl under the door to unlock it and pull her out, and a couple of us carried her to the nurse's office. She'd had a sudden asthma attack and passed out. I think that was our junior year. Seems like by the time you're that age, you should be able to be trusted with an inhaler you might need suddenly for a documented medical condition.

[chasfm11]

Something sort of related to zero-tolerance policies is the issue I've seen with inhalers. I don't know much about the drugs in those things, but is there even a black market for them? When I was in high school one of my friends had severe asthma but was required to keep her inhaler at the school nurse's office. I remember one morning before school we were both in the bathroom when I heard a "thud" from her stall. I had to crawl under the door to unlock it and pull her out, and a couple of us carried her to the nurse's office. She'd had a sudden asthma attack and passed out. I think that was our junior year. Seems like by the time you're that age, you should be able to be trusted with an inhaler you might need suddenly for a documented medical condition.

For me, this is all the same mentality as with guns. Chicago's idea is to ban guns....except that as always, it results in only the illegal ones.

In fairness, the schools cannot make a determination about who should and who should not have inhalers or other medicine. It puzzles me, however, that many schools can have student ID badges and it won't take much to add a different kind of a card to the badge holder that says that the student is OK to have an inhaler. It could be issued with the rigor as the original ID.

One size fits all never works. There are too many kids who have exceptional conditions and the schools are not set up to handle any exceptions.

[MotherBear]

In fairness, the schools cannot make a determination about who should and who should not have inhalers or other medicine. It puzzles me, however, that many schools can have student ID badges and it won't take much to add a different kind of a card to the badge holder that says that the student is OK to have an inhaler. It could be issued with the rigor as the original ID.

One size fits all never works. There are too many kids who have exceptional conditions and the schools are not set up to handle any exceptions.

The ID listing for an inhaler makes sense to me. I don't think the school would have to make the determination who can or can't have one; the student can show a prescription for an inhaler, or an inhaler with the prescription label with their name on it, or a doctor's note, or whatever. I think a note from a parent should suffice as well, but schools don't tend to like that. I always got in trouble because my mom refused to do doctor's notes. She told the attendance folks that she said she was taking me to the doctor/dentist/whatever and unless they were calling her a liar that should be good enough.

[chasfm11]

The ID listing for an inhaler makes sense to me. I don't think the school would have to make the determination who can or can't have one; the student can show a prescription for an inhaler, or an inhaler with the prescription label with their name on it, or a doctor's note, or whatever. I think a note from a parent should suffice as well, but schools don't tend to like that. I always got in trouble because my mom refused to do doctor's notes. She told the attendance folks that she said she was taking me to the doctor/dentist/whatever and unless they were calling her a liar that should be good enough.

Even doctor's notes don't appear to appease some of them. Our daughter had a legitimate medical condition and I personally took a new doctor's note in every month, handing it directly to a principal. The issue was her absences. She was in the top of her class, taking AP classes and doing well in them, despite the absences. I didn't find out until later that the school's real issue was State funding. If the school's attendance ratios didn't met State requirements, funding was reduced and the school was more interested in that funding than any doctor's verification of a medial condition. I had just been at the school in the morning with a fresh dated noted and they went to our daughter's class room that afternoon to assign her detention for the absences. Given what she was going through medically, such actions were devastating to her. We were paying for private tutoring to help her because of her absences and that didn't count either.

At the end of our daughter's situation, I gathered up all of my documentation and set up a meeting with the Superintendent. My documentation clearly showed that his administrators had twisted information so badly that it was unrecognizable. That's why I'm always suspicious as I was with the report that the kids in this case were shooting at other kids at the bus stop. If that had been true, it would have come out immediately. Given time, many innocent stories get twisted up to look totally different that the facts on which they should be based. I view school administrators with the same glasses as any other politician. Trust but verify is a good motto.

[MotherBear]

Yep, the attendance issues we had ultimately came down to funding. We realized they didn't mind if you left after the point at which the numbers were locked in for funding purposes, but heaven help you if you were gone during that time. Sorry your daughter had to go through that. It amazes me how quick the schools are to treat students and their parents like the enemy when you don't toe the line.