Makes for a good argument advocating retention holsters. Thanks for posting.
Have you read the story? There is nothing in it that indicates a retention holster would of made a darn bit of a difference. It read more like the man didn't pull his gun and use it when he could of than anything else. If you get jumped and lose a fight holster retention will not keep your gun secure. It may keep your gun out of others hand while you fight but when the fight is done if you lose they can get your gun.
Yup. Sure did....
"Tyler’s handgun was taken from his person, and within 30 seconds he was shot with a handgun,” Johnson said. “At this point, we cannot confirm that he was shot with his gun.” He added, “We believe only one shot was fired, and that was the fatal shot.” Johnson said it was unclear whether Smith or Hamiel had been armed when they entered the store, but they are accused of robbing Tyler of his weapon.
Sure sounds like they grabbed it from the holster to me. No retention holster, grabbed from it, MUCH easier to grab, off body, than a retention holster. I'm sure you agree with me on that point.
Diplomacy is the Art of Letting Someone Have Your Way
TSRA
Colt Gov't Model .380
Edited in an effort to make my point in a softer gentler more acceptable manner.
It's an internet forum and a news report. It's not a trial court where something has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There is nothing in the article that indicates a retention holster would NOT have helped him retain his gun. The article did indicate the gun was removed from the person body and it was not drawn by the carrier.
To assist those that were unable to find a story or report which was referenced by another poster, I posted the link to the story discussing the case in which someone had their gun removed from their holster by someone else. I googled and found the story as a service to fellow posters. Now the story is being challenged as to what actually happened even though there is no evidence to sorry the article being erroneous.
Retention holsters are designed to assist the carrier in retaining his or her weapon in instances where someone just grabs someone's gun or there is a hands on fight and the bad guy tries to take the carrier's gun from them. Retention holsters aren't full proof and do not guarantee the gun cannot be removed by a bad guy. They are designed to make it more difficult. Since we do not have access to video, eye witness accounts, investigation reports and other forensic evidence, it makes sense to rely on what information we have evaluable.
Last edited by mojo84 on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
Makes for a good argument advocating retention holsters. Thanks for posting.
Have you read the story? There is nothing in it that indicates a retention holster would of made a darn bit of a difference. It read more like the man didn't pull his gun and use it when he could of than anything else. If you get jumped and lose a fight holster retention will not keep your gun secure. It may keep your gun out of others hand while you fight but when the fight is done if you lose they can get your gun.
Yup. Sure did....
"Tyler’s handgun was taken from his person, and within 30 seconds he was shot with a handgun,” Johnson said. “At this point, we cannot confirm that he was shot with his gun.” He added, “We believe only one shot was fired, and that was the fatal shot.” Johnson said it was unclear whether Smith or Hamiel had been armed when they entered the store, but they are accused of robbing Tyler of his weapon.
Sure sounds like they grabbed it from the holster to me. No retention holster, grabbed from it, MUCH easier to grab, off body, than a retention holster. I'm sure you agree with me on that point.
Yes a gun is much easier to remove from a holster if there is no retention but that fact alone without context means nothing. They don't even know if he was shot with his own gun just that he didn't have it when they found his body. Anything could of happened so I don't consider this support for retention holsters with what.we know about it now. That something could, if everything comes together right, support a point doesn't mean that it supports the point without, or until you find out, about that info.
The scuttlebutt around here (less then 15 miles from where this happened) is that he was shot by his own gun. Guy grabbed his gun he tried to get it back and was shot for his trouble. Can't try local rumor in court, but proximity to the event makes the story more reliable. Anyway, in this case retention might have helped. It sure could not have hurt.
SAHM to four precious children. Wife to a loving husband.
"The women of this country learned long ago those without swords can still die upon them!" Eowyn in LOTR Two Towers
mamabearCali wrote:The scuttlebutt around here (less then 15 miles from where this happened) is that he was shot by his own gun. Guy grabbed his gun he tried to get it back and was shot for his trouble. Can't try local rumor in court, but proximity to the event makes the story more reliable. Anyway, in this case retention might have helped. It sure could not have hurt.
Unless you go by MOJO logic because then I can say that the retention probably made him too slow off.the draw and got him killed and since there is nothing in the story that says that isn't true you really can't argue against it. Unless you are an assistant DA or some sort of law student for some reason I don't get.
Authorities said the two suspects followed Tyler into the BP station and that Tyler’s gun was taken from his holster during a struggle, even though Tyler had not drawn his weapon on the assailants.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
EEllis wrote: Yes a gun is much easier to remove from a holster if there is no retention but that fact alone without context means nothing. They don't even know if he was shot with his own gun just that he didn't have it when they found his body. Anything could of happened so I don't consider this support for retention holsters with what.we know about it now. That something could, if everything comes together right, support a point doesn't mean that it supports the point without, or until you find out, about that info.
You are arguing a point that does not need arguing. This is not a court of law. A tragedy has happened with the result of a good man, who realized the need to be armed, is now dead. God Bless his soul. I mourn for him and his family. He was wanting to do the right thing. And things went wrong. We are merely discussing how to possibly prevent future scenarios like this from happening in the future.
Enough said. I will not post further in this thread.
Diplomacy is the Art of Letting Someone Have Your Way
TSRA
Colt Gov't Model .380
EEllis wrote: Yes a gun is much easier to remove from a holster if there is no retention but that fact alone without context means nothing. They don't even know if he was shot with his own gun just that he didn't have it when they found his body. Anything could of happened so I don't consider this support for retention holsters with what.we know about it now. That something could, if everything comes together right, support a point doesn't mean that it supports the point without, or until you find out, about that info.
You are arguing a point that does not need arguing. This is not a court of law. A tragedy has happened with the result of a good man, who realized the need to be armed, is now dead. God Bless his soul. I mourn for him and his family. He was wanting to do the right thing. And things went wrong. We are merely discussing how to possibly prevent future scenarios like this from happening in the future.
Enough said. I will not post further in this thread.
What is up with you guys? This is a subject that I am seriously interested in and want to have a real discussion. I'm not arguing about this poor man because we don't know anything to argue about. We don't really know what happened, we have no idea if he used a retention holster, we don't know what gun he was shot with. The only possible arguing I'm doing is stating that right now this news really can't used to make any valid point in a discussion.
Oh I know the answer to that. No, the poor fellow did not have retention. It was a leather holster so it was a good fit, but no, no retention. I am on a I phone do it is hard for me but there is a video of the incident and I clearly remember the lack of retention.
We discussed at length in VA gun forum about whether even a thumb break could have helped. Poor man.
Let me put it like this...I like some retention on everything. Just because I have had odd things happen to me (kids add an excitement to life). I have had a toddler knock me over and my gun went flying in walmart once. Then once I had a belly band turn inside out and drop the gun on the floor in a Wendy's bathroom. So I like some retention even if I am CC. Just my style.
If you don't use retention I plead with you to keep your head on a swivel. Be aware. I am certain your draw would be faster than mine, but still. I don't want to be debating this over another good mans death.
SAHM to four precious children. Wife to a loving husband.
"The women of this country learned long ago those without swords can still die upon them!" Eowyn in LOTR Two Towers
mamabearCali wrote:Oh I know the answer to that. No, the poor fellow did not have retention. It was a leather holster so it was a good fit, but no, no retention. I am on a I phone do it is hard for me but there is a video of the incident and I clearly remember the lack of retention.
We discussed at length in VA gun forum about whether even a thumb break could have helped. Poor man.
Let me put it like this...I like some retention on everything. Just because I have had odd things happen to me (kids add an excitement to life). I have had a toddler knock me over and my gun went flying in walmart once. Then once I had a belly band turn inside out and drop the gun on the floor in a Wendy's bathroom. So I like some retention even if I am CC. Just my style.
If you don't use retention I plead with you to keep your head on a swivel. Be aware. I am certain your draw would be faster than mine, but still. I don't want to be debating this over another good mans death.
First it isn't about debating about this man. It's trying to find out what info is valuable to the discussion. The more the info the better. Any chance of a link to the vid or more info on the incident? Second the only holster I own that my gun might come out of if you hung me upside down and shook me is a pocket holster for one of my .380's. My thought isn't that retention is somehow bad it's the claims of necessity by those who push the idea into civilian carry. A few events of any type are not necessarily statistically significant are no one would ever go outside when there was any possibility of lightning strike. I mean sure you get out of the pool if you are swimming but I would still walk outside, go to and from my car, try and stay out of the rain but otherwise not worry if I was camping, etc. I do that not because no one ever got hit by lightning, heck a guy at work was sent to the hospital a few moths ago due to a strike landing right next to him shocking the heck out of him, but generally speaking the statistical chance is low enough most people don't worry about it. I'm not trying to claim retention is never good. I have just not seen any evidence to back up the claim that, as a group, oc or cc need better retention due to BG's taking guns out of holsters.
I'm not advocating for or against non-cops using a retention holster. I also do not think there are enough non-cop open carriers to rely solely on statistics to make one's decision. If we are going to base or decisin solely on statistics, would they justify the need to carry a gun at all. Statistics don't mean much if you are the statistic.
People need to make their own decisions based on what's best for them in their particular situation. If one thinks they may be better off if they utilize a retention holster then they probably should use one, especially if they are going to e around crowds.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.
mamabearCali wrote:The scuttlebutt around here (less then 15 miles from where this happened) is that he was shot by his own gun. Guy grabbed his gun he tried to get it back and was shot for his trouble. Can't try local rumor in court, but proximity to the event makes the story more reliable. Anyway, in this case retention might have helped. It sure could not have hurt.
Unless you go by MOJO logic because then I can say that the retention probably made him too slow off.the draw and got him killed and since there is nothing in the story that says that isn't true you really can't argue against it. Unless you are an assistant DA or some sort of law student for some reason I don't get.
Its a board with opinions. They can argue the moon is really a purple fairie spirit reincarnation of Elvis if they want. If you disagree, fine, but you're just one opinion among many, and as relevant.
mojo84 wrote:I'm not advocating for or against non-cops using a retention holster. I also do not think there are enough non-cop open carriers to rely solely on statistics to make one's decision. If we are going to base or decisin solely on statistics, would they justify the need to carry a gun at all. Statistics don't mean much if you are the statistic.
People need to make their own decisions based on what's best for them in their particular situation. If one thinks they may be better off if they utilize a retention holster then they probably should use one, especially if they are going to e around crowds.
Although this could be debated ad infinitum with cogent arguments on both sides, it would never reach the point of a definitive answer applicable to everyone.
Like with anything in life, responsible people gather data, interpret it for their situation, make decisions and live with the results.
Life is full of uncertainties and this topic is no different.
'Nuff said.
Excaliber
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
