VoiceofReason wrote:There are many ways of controlling a person resisting arrest without causing major or life threatening injuries. The police are not trained to use them. A petite female can easily control a large man and may not even get her uniform dirty.
What you're saying is true, but the reality is that it's not "easy" and requires an awful lot of training, retraining, and constant practice. And there is some value where you can have all the technique you want, but if you're 125 lbs and up against a 300lb fat guy, it's very dangerous. Some people are able to do it, after years, but not many...
I'm all for a better trained, better paid police force... But it's not reasonable to expect that LEOs will always be able to affect arrests against resisting persons without causing or receiving injury.
I don't know if it was a choke or not. I do know that it's relatively easy to get slightly out of position and start doing it wrong, especially if you're dealing with someone that's bigger and stronger. And the fact is that current case law makes almost any level of force "legal" to affect the arrest...
EEllis wrote: So saying that this guy violated policy when the NYPD tacitly approved of such things regularly is a bit much.
Well, the Commissioner apparently felt right off the bat that it was a 'chokehold' and they stripped the officer of his badge and gun while the investigaiton was being done http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /12936547/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In a news conference a day after Garner's death, NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton said Garner "appeared to have been in a chokehold." He said the investigations will "seek to make that final determination."
So, again, while the GJ decided the tactic didn't cause the death, the internal thoughts were that it 'sure looked like a chokehold'.
Call me cynical but I don't think the commissioners actions had anything to do with anything but politics. 10 to 1 the review board says otherwise and the officer actually keeps his job. That being said you never directly addressed my comments which were that even tho they may condemn the actions by this officer similar actions are routinely accepted by the NYPD. My comments were not on the bigger picture just that using the "illegal choke hold" as evidence of something greater really doesn't hold up. It sounds good but is really just noise being used to predispose the public towards guilt.
VoiceofReason wrote:There are many ways of controlling a person resisting arrest without causing major or life threatening injuries. The police are not trained to use them. A petite female can easily control a large man and may not even get her uniform dirty.
What you're saying is true, but the reality is that it's not "easy" and requires an awful lot of training, retraining, and constant practice. And there is some value where you can have all the technique you want, but if you're 125 lbs and up against a 300lb fat guy, it's very dangerous. Some people are able to do it, after years, but not many...
I'm all for a better trained, better paid police force... But it's not reasonable to expect that LEOs will always be able to affect arrests against resisting persons without causing or receiving injury.
I don't know if it was a choke or not. I do know that it's relatively easy to get slightly out of position and start doing it wrong, especially if you're dealing with someone that's bigger and stronger. And the fact is that current case law makes almost any level of force "legal" to affect the arrest...
Not to mention those techniques just don't work near as well in the real world. In the gym people don't want to get hurt and will tap as soon as pain starts. In the real world anger, fear, drugs, all play into people really not wanting to stop. People will keep fighting thru broken bones and dislocations so the belief that some little pain will stop everyone is less than accurate.
EEllis wrote: So saying that this guy violated policy when the NYPD tacitly approved of such things regularly is a bit much.
Well, the Commissioner apparently felt right off the bat that it was a 'chokehold' and they stripped the officer of his badge and gun while the investigaiton was being done http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /12936547/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In a news conference a day after Garner's death, NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton said Garner "appeared to have been in a chokehold." He said the investigations will "seek to make that final determination."
So, again, while the GJ decided the tactic didn't cause the death, the internal thoughts were that it 'sure looked like a chokehold'.
Call me cynical but I don't think the commissioners actions had anything to do with anything but politics. 10 to 1 the review board says otherwise and the officer actually keeps his job. That being said you never directly addressed my comments which were that even tho they may condemn the actions by this officer similar actions are routinely accepted by the NYPD. My comments were not on the bigger picture just that using the "illegal choke hold" as evidence of something greater really doesn't hold up. It sounds good but is really just noise being used to predispose the public towards guilt.
I'll wait for the internal review before I determine he was not doing something he shouldn't policy-wise. And it wasn't an 'illegal' hold, it would have just been a policy issue if in fact they decide it was not an approved tactic.
However, I don't trust NYPD IAD any farther than I can throw them, so not sure I will actually believe their review when it comes out. They are as bad about cover-ups and corruption as any department could be.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member
VoiceofReason wrote:There are many ways of controlling a person resisting arrest without causing major or life threatening injuries. The police are not trained to use them. A petite female can easily control a large man and may not even get her uniform dirty.
What you're saying is true, but the reality is that it's not "easy" and requires an awful lot of training, retraining, and constant practice. And there is some value where you can have all the technique you want, but if you're 125 lbs and up against a 300lb fat guy, it's very dangerous. Some people are able to do it, after years, but not many...
I'm all for a better trained, better paid police force... But it's not reasonable to expect that LEOs will always be able to affect arrests against resisting persons without causing or receiving injury.
I don't know if it was a choke or not. I do know that it's relatively easy to get slightly out of position and start doing it wrong, especially if you're dealing with someone that's bigger and stronger. And the fact is that current case law makes almost any level of force "legal" to affect the arrest...
Not to mention those techniques just don't work near as well in the real world. In the gym people don't want to get hurt and will tap as soon as pain starts. In the real world anger, fear, drugs, all play into people really not wanting to stop. People will keep fighting thru broken bones and dislocations so the belief that some little pain will stop everyone is less than accurate.
I don't "expect that LEOs will always be able to affect arrests against resisting persons without causing or receiving injury" and I am aware "that some little pain will not stop everyone" but I do know there are ways to cause extreme pain with no lasting injury.
What I was trying to say is that if “brute force” is the only way an officer knows how to handle a situation then that is how he will handle every situation. Give him some practical training and he may find he has an alternative to the “choke hold” or “sleeper hold”.
When I was young and in LE we had a situation one night that a subject refused to get out of his car. This guy and my partner were much larger than myself. My partner wrestled with him and wasn’t having much luck getting him out. I tapped my partner on the shoulder and when he moved out of the way, I reached in with one hand and pulled the subject out all the while he was going ow ow ow ow. My partner asked “how did you do that?” and I showed him.
I am old now and am proud I can control my bladder but IMO LE should receive more training on controlling another person hand to hand.
I will offer this piece of advice to active LE. Believe me, I know how hard it is but never get angry. Anger prevents you from thinking clearly at a time when you need to most. (Edited to state control your anger. It is impossible not to get angry in some situations.)
Some may find the following interesting. Martin Wheeler " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by VoiceofReason on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
