Missouri passes permitless conceal carry via massive pro gun bill

[FloridaViaMissouri]

I need to move to Missouri, then.

Hopefully not into Newman or McCreery's districts. LOL

You got something against folks from the big city?
Saying this as a kid from the Farmington / Park Hills area

Just folks from the big city that think us who grew up in the rural area are below them. And you're a Yankee. I grew up in Poplar Bluff.

I don't really consider that area to be Yankees. It's in that area of Missouri that's a transition zone a mix of southern and Midwestern like southern Indiana is.

Poplar Bluff is in the south though. That area is a part of Missouri that is truly Dixie.

I knew when Todd Richardson became speaker it would be a better year for getting gun laws passed compared to stl area speaker/perv last year who resigned, John Diehl. Last year the permit less carry bill didn't go anywhere except the emerging issues committee it passed mid April and it was too late by then. I don't see Diehl letting a permit less carry bill get to the floor.

[FloridaViaMissouri]

Democrat governor candidate Chris Koster also says he sees no reason why Jay Nixon needs to veto this bill. Koster in the MO house was a republican then switched to Democrat though and is generally pro gun. Nixon was semi pro gun in the past but in his second term he vetoed expanded open carry along with Federal gun nullification bill. Koster is currently the Attorney General of Missouri. It's funny how Missouri has massive super majorities in both chambers but a democrat governor. That is because of St. Louis voters and some rural Missouri voters have the similar mentality that ones in West Virginia, Kentucky and Arkansas have of voting democrat in state elections.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/pol ... a1d8a.html
Koster also said he sees no reason to veto a bill passed last week that would enact a “stand your ground” law in Missouri and expand the state’s “castle doctrine” law to allow invited guests to use deadly force against intruders.

“I am a proponent of gun rights in this state and look forward to reviewing the bill, but I haven’t heard anything that would cause me to think that the governor should veto it,” Koster said.

[Keith B]

I knew when Todd Richardson became speaker it would be a better year for getting gun laws passed compared to stl area speaker/perv last year who resigned, John Diehl. Last year the permit less carry bill didn't go anywhere except the emerging issues committee it passed mid April and it was too late by then. I don't see Diehl letting a permit less carry bill get to the floor.

Todd and his family are all friends of mine. They are good folks. I would love to see Todd as a gubernatorial candidate in the not too distant future!

[FloridaViaMissouri]

I knew when Todd Richardson became speaker it would be a better year for getting gun laws passed compared to stl area speaker/perv last year who resigned, John Diehl. Last year the permit less carry bill didn't go anywhere except the emerging issues committee it passed mid April and it was too late by then. I don't see Diehl letting a permit less carry bill get to the floor.

Todd and his family are all friends of mine. They are good folks. I would love to see Todd as a gubernatorial candidate in the not too distant future!

have you spoke to Todd since the passage of 656? I'm just wondering what the demand for this bill to pass was. Someone else told me their state rep and Senators said they were getting flooded with emails and phone calls at Jefferson City demanding permit less carry. Burlison represents parts of Greene County and Greene County sheriffs is a pain to deal with having to make an appointment 2 months in advance right now. Jackson county is another. I'm sure that helped get this bill passed too with all the complaints about wait times. However Mom's Needing More Action claim most in Missouri don't want this and have they swarmed the capital lol.

It's ironic how easy it is in St. Louis county and St. Louis city to apply and renew your ccw permit despite being anti gun areas. Stl county you just walk in Mon thru Friday with no appointment needed. A lot easier than here in Florida that requires an appointment sometimes two months in advanced.

[Keith B]

have you spoke to Todd since the passage of 656? I'm just wondering what the demand for this bill to pass was. Someone else told me their state rep and Senators said they were getting flooded with emails and phone calls at Jefferson City demanding permit less carry. Burlison represents parts of Greene County and Greene County sheriffs is a pain to deal with having to make an appointment 2 months in advance right now. Jackson county is another. I'm sure that helped get this bill passed too with all the complaints about wait times. However Mom's Needing More Action claim most in Missouri don't want this and have they swarmed the capital lol.

It's ironic how easy it is in St. Louis county and St. Louis city to apply and renew your ccw permit despite being anti gun areas. Stl county you just walk in Mon thru Friday with no appointment needed. A lot easier than here in Florida that requires an appointment sometimes two months in advanced.

I have not. However, I spoke to him prior about the HB. I believe the enhancements on the Castle Doctrine and Employee Parking Lot sections were what drove it more than the permitless carry, but don't have that confirmation. I was going to talk to him a couple of weeks ago on Mothers Day, but he got away from the church before I could catch him.

[FloridaViaMissouri]

I pretty much agree. Of course the original HB 1468 that got sent to the senate didn't include stand your ground and the full campus carry.

It almost seems like a well crafted strategy they did here. They knew 1468 probably wouldn't make it through the senate in time or the way it was so they used Munzlinger's minor bill that was just for extending the military time to renew. They got that over to the house and allowed Burlison to tack on his permit less carry bill and eventually got Schaeffer to tack on stand your ground over in the senate.

Missouri should have had the full stand your ground back in 2007. It was included in the better castle doctrine bill that passed the house but somehow the senate nixed the "anywhere you can lawfully be" language out of it which is beyond me why they did that when they had the very pro gun Matt Blunt who would have signed any gun bill thrown at him.

Hopefully the next speaker is also from rural Missouri. These RINOish leaders from St. Louis in the House and Senate don't like to push pro gun stuff through as quickly.

A recent interview with Rep Charlie Davis regarding permit less carry. He thinks due to it passing with the super majorities it did that Nixon will simply just sit on the bill and let it become law on it's own without taking any action. I kind of have a hunch Nixon might just do this. During the veto override in 2014 right before the midterm elections the super majorities were a lot smaller and the open carry bill was still overrode and the democrats got slaughtered in the house and senate elections in Nov especially in pro gun Jefferson County. Now the republican super majorities have grown even more and Nixon must know that vetoing the bill will simply be a waste of time because he will be overrode.

http://www.newstalkkzrg.com/2016/05/22/ ... arry-bill/

[Keith B]

A recent interview with Rep Charlie Davis regarding permit less carry. He thinks due to it passing with the super majorities it did that Nixon will simply just sit on the bill and let it become law on it's own without taking any action. I kind of have a hunch Nixon might just do this.

That is a good possibility as well. While I have mixed feelings on permitless carry without any basic training or at least some coverage of firearms laws, I applaud the legislature for advancing 2A issues and working for Missourian's gun rights.

As for the Speaker, this is one of the times I hate term limits. Todd will be out at the end of this term. That happened to another good friend and former co-worker who was a Representative. Term limits are OK in some circumstances, but when you have a good legislator in place it can take them out before their 'good is used up'. The same goes for those with the 'vote em all out' mentality; sometimes you lose a good person who is still productive.

In Todd's case, I hope he will look at taking a run for a another office in the near future like AG or Governor.

[FloridaViaMissouri]

Term limits I think certainly helped get ccw passed in Missouri and many agree. It got read of the dead wood in Jefferson city and replaced them with republicans in many cases.

Burlison is also term limited but is considering running for the senate in 2018. It would be huge having him in the senate because the senate tends to be more moderate when it comes to firearms issues so having a staunch supporter like him would be an addition. I'm not too worried about the house because the house always is pretty pro gun.

[steveincowtown]

That is a good possibility as well. While I have mixed feelings on permitless carry without any basic training or at least some coverage of firearms laws, I applaud the legislature for advancing 2A issues and working for Missourian's gun rights.

Keith, do you happen to be an instructor? Also, anytime someone brings this up I ask for examples of this being a problem from permit-less (so called Constitutional Carry) states, which somehow are VERY hard to find.

A 4-6 hour CHL course doesn't make you a student of the law. Being involved in a board like this, asking questions, and having good forum Admin like yourself to provide guidance is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully Texas will have a chance at this next session!

[FloridaViaMissouri]

A recent interview with Rep Charlie Davis regarding permit less carry. He thinks due to it passing with the super majorities it did that Nixon will simply just sit on the bill and let it become law on it's own without taking any action. I kind of have a hunch Nixon might just do this.

That is a good possibility as well. While I have mixed feelings on permitless carry without any basic training or at least some coverage of firearms laws, I applaud the legislature for advancing 2A issues and working for Missourian's gun rights.

As for the Speaker, this is one of the times I hate term limits. Todd will be out at the end of this term. That happened to another good friend and former co-worker who was a Representative. Term limits are OK in some circumstances, but when you have a good legislator in place it can take them out before their 'good is used up'. The same goes for those with the 'vote em all out' mentality; sometimes you lose a good person who is still productive.

In Todd's case, I hope he will look at taking a run for a another office in the near future like AG or Governor.

Attorney General might be awhile if Kurt Schaefer wins. Kurt has a tough battle due to all the women really hating him regarding Planned Parenthood. The St. Louis loons will really vote against him. Schaefer did a lot for us though. Not only helping with SB656 but he wrote the Amendment 5 back in 2014 which could have eventually led to constitutional carry if a court case got to MO supreme court.

I copied my letter I sent Jay Nixon below. I got the usual form reply about a day later from his staff saying he gives all bills a "comprehensive" review line by line. He's been using that slogan the past few weeks now.

Governor Nixon:
As you know recently Senate Bill 656 passed with large super majorities in both the house and senate. As a responsible firearms owner who uses them for both recreation and for personal protection I ask that you please support this bill and allow it to become law.
As recently demonstrated the people of Missouri have expressed their strong support for the second amendment with the passage of amendment 5 in 2014 and more recently with Senate Bill 656. You probably have heard representatives and senators in Jefferson City were overwhelmed with emails and telephone calls to their offices in support of Senate Bill 656 and asking their representatives and senators to pass this bill.
In 2003 when concealed carry was passed in Missouri the media tried to claim that the law would be too dangerous and that Missouri would be the wild west again which all those claims turned out to be untrue and Missourians have continued to prove the media wrong and many who were originally against the idea are now supporters of concealed carry. With Senate Bill 656 allowing concealed carry without a permit this simply allows law abiding citizens the right to carry concealed if they wish to not obtain a permit due to cost reasons being that permits can cost up to $100 not including the class that’s needed and in addition some counties in Missouri it requires wait times up to 3 months to get an appointment to apply for and renew permits due to the increase demand for them. This especially affects domestic violence victims who are in danger and need a permit to protect them from harm.
Finally the other major part of this bill is the change to the use of deadly force laws. Under the current laws a person that is outside of their house or vehicle is supposed to try and retreat if being attacked. In most circumstances that is nearly impossible when under serious bodily attack and injury. As you know as being a lawyer that legal fees can run in the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars if a case goes to trial and outside from financially ruining someone’s life can potentially send an innocent person to prison if a overreaching prosecutor decides to try and prosecute someone for simply protecting themselves or their family members from serious injury or death.
As governor I ask for you to please support this bill. It’s understandable if you personally disagree with it but can you please also take into consideration the strong support for the second amendment in Missouri as well as the Senators and Representatives who also speak for their constituents who overwhelmingly support this bill?

[Keith B]

That is a good possibility as well. While I have mixed feelings on permitless carry without any basic training or at least some coverage of firearms laws, I applaud the legislature for advancing 2A issues and working for Missourian's gun rights.

Keith, do you happen to be an instructor? Also, anytime someone brings this up I ask for examples of this being a problem from permit-less (so called Constitutional Carry) states, which somehow are VERY hard to find.

A 4-6 hour CHL course doesn't make you a student of the law. Being involved in a board like this, asking questions, and having good forum Admin like yourself to provide guidance is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully Texas will have a chance at this next session!

If you read my signature line, you will see I am both a Texas an Missouri instructor. And i don't say these things because I feel the classes make you a student of the law or a good shooter, but at least they make you aware of the off-limits places, required carry methods, etc. It will help keep you out of trouble.

[steveincowtown]

That is a good possibility as well. While I have mixed feelings on permitless carry without any basic training or at least some coverage of firearms laws, I applaud the legislature for advancing 2A issues and working for Missourian's gun rights.

Keith, do you happen to be an instructor? Also, anytime someone brings this up I ask for examples of this being a problem from permit-less (so called Constitutional Carry) states, which somehow are VERY hard to find.

A 4-6 hour CHL course doesn't make you a student of the law. Being involved in a board like this, asking questions, and having good forum Admin like yourself to provide guidance is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully Texas will have a chance at this next session!

If you read my signature line, you will see I am both a Texas an Missouri instructor. And i don't say these things because I feel the classes make you a student of the law or a good shooter, but at least they make you aware of the off-limits places, required carry methods, etc. It will help keep you out of trouble.

Sorry I missed that in your signature line.

- Did you have any examples of where this has been an issue in so called "Constitutional" Carry states? People entering off limits places? Carrying incorrectly? Don't get me wrong I like training and courses are a great idea! I also think government mandated courses are neither constitutional nor necessary.

The proof of this are states like Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, etc. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse when it comes to ANY law, including gun laws.

[Keith B]

Sorry I missed that in your signature line.

- Did you have any examples of where this has been an issue in so called "Constitutional" Carry states? People entering off limits places? Carrying incorrectly? Don't get me wrong I like training and courses are a great idea! I also think government mandated courses are neither constitutional nor necessary.

The proof of this are states like Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, etc. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse when it comes to ANY law, including gun laws.

I don't have any specifics, but there are instances every day of individuals WITH an LTC/CCW carrying into off-limits locations. I know personally of people licensed in Missouri who have carried into a church without proper permission. In MO it is not a criminal penalty if you carry into an off-limits location with a license. However, with the new law and permitless carry, it will be a Class B or Class A misdemeanor.

And we all know that the majority of people who carry WITH a license are not like us and members of this or other forums, so they don't go out and research the laws and rules on their own. This forum has about 18,000 members, which equates to only 1.8% of Texas LTC holders. With permitless carry, most people will hear just what they want to hear, that is that they can carry concealed without a license, and go about their lives carrying concealed without getting details of the law.

So, a fraction of those who HAVE been covered carry into locaitons because they either forgot or just didnt' listen in class, then those that don['t know will be a much larger percentage.

[FloridaViaMissouri]

Latest from Jay Nixon. He says in recent days some in law enforcement have expressed concerned regarding lack of training. Me thinks he will use this as an excuse to veto it.

http://www.missourinet.com/2016/06/03/m ... ghts-bill/

Governor Jay Nixon isn’t saying whether he will sign or veto a proposal that would relax Missouri gun laws.

Nixon said he is hearing from some Missouri law enforcement about it.

“It’s been interesting to see in recent days some of the law enforcement folks stepping forward and raising some concerns about the training part,” said Nixon. “We’ll look especially closely at some of the training requirements and how robust they’ve been in our state

[Papa_Tiger]

Latest from Jay Nixon. He says in recent days some in law enforcement have expressed concerned regarding lack of training. Me thinks he will use this as an excuse to veto it.

http://www.missourinet.com/2016/06/03/m ... ghts-bill/

Governor Jay Nixon isn’t saying whether he will sign or veto a proposal that would relax Missouri gun laws.

Nixon said he is hearing from some Missouri law enforcement about it.

“It’s been interesting to see in recent days some of the law enforcement folks stepping forward and raising some concerns about the training part,” said Nixon. “We’ll look especially closely at some of the training requirements and how robust they’ve been in our state

Just like we heard from law enforcement during the last session that open carry would cause massive confusion, make the job of law enforcement's officers harder and result in bloodshed on both sides of the thin blue line? I'm beginning to think that law enforcement top brass just doesn't like change...

That being said, carrying a firearm on a daily basis is a big decision and I didn't understand the magnitude of the decision until I received additional training outside of the CHL class. I think people should pursue and receive training, but I don't know if it should necessarily be mandatory.