Open Carry Texas holds demonstration in Longview

[Beiruty]

If we allow or even tolerate more gun restrictions or banning OC of long rifles or replica black powder revovlers, then we are total failure as gun-right community. If this ever happens, it is only us to be blamed. I mean OC folks are trying to advance the OC right, if we do not support OC or any other gun rights then who are we?

[jmra]

If we allow or even tolerate more gun restrictions or banning OC of long rifles or replica black powder revovlers, then we are total failure as gun-right community. If this ever happens, it is only us to be blamed. I mean OC folks are trying to advance the OC right, if we do not support OC or any other gun rights then who are we?

"We" are people smart enough to know what works to advance change and what prevents it. OC demonstrations are not going to change people's mind about guns and so far they have only provided ammunition for those who seek to pass more gun restriction laws. Don't believe me, ask those who will be voting on these bills. Ask those like Tripp and Cotton who are working hard for our rights who have asked that these tactics stop.
Who are "we"? "We" are people who refuse to shoot ourselves in the foot in order to prove a point. "We" are people who refuse to through the baby out with the bath water.

[jmra]

If gun owners are perceiving the tactics of the OC demonstrations unfavorably, imagine how the gun-ignorant in our state are. Recently a friend who is neutral on guns told me she would vote in a heartbeat for a politician who will outlaw these "hillbillies" (her words) from carrying an AR publicly. I for one am sick of seeing them on the news myself. If a law is passed that stops OC of long guns, it will be on the heads of those who used this freedom so rudely it forced lawmakers to put a stop to it. If your teammate keeps running up the score for the other side, do you still see him as a person you want on your team? Is it betraying your team to ask him to please just stop doing it? Then failing that, to flat out demand he knock it off and sit on the bench? The idea we must all remain silent for fear the public will see us as divided just makes the public believe we are all approving of this behavior. We can agree with open carry and disagree with tactics that give a terrible impression of us all.

[Beiruty]

I am out of this OC business. Nothing to gain from arguing. Maybe working silently do accomplish more useful things.
But let me know one thing, let us say if OC for sidearms do pass and it is the law that OC of long rifles is legal. In the future exercising the OC option would not be agitating the anti too? Or, are we trying to pass OC on the books only and then we discourage the practice of OC for firearms?

[Selcouth]

If we allow or even tolerate more gun restrictions or banning OC of long rifles or replica black powder revovlers, then we are total failure as gun-right community. If this ever happens, it is only us to be blamed. I mean OC folks are trying to advance the OC right, if we do not support OC or any other gun rights then who are we?

If ANY form of open carry of LG becomes a restriction in the next session. Then, all of those that are demonstrating will have plenty of irritated gun owners to deal with.

Some of the Open carry people are gun toting extremist who have an issue paying for a license to carry. Yet, have no issue paying for a drivers license which could easily be argued is unconstitutional. The entire message of open carry is being lost when demonstrations include LG. The whole demonstration walks a fine line using a scare tactic. Why is it a scare tactic? Because people are smart enough to know that a LG serves absolutely no purpose in the city... Regardless if it is legal or not. You can say your educating all you want, but it's no different than someone telling another individual they will be going to hell if they don't accept Christ in their life. Scare tactics rarely work and the real message ends up being lost in how it's delivered.

If demonstrations are being done and they are truly wanting open carry then why not just carry black powder pistols? Does it not make make more sense that is what they truly want the public to be aware of. Not people walking around with LG, but individuals who will be walking around with handguns on their hips?

[jmra]

I am out of this OC business. Nothing to gain from arguing. Maybe working silently do accomplish more useful things.
But let me know one thing, let us say if OC for sidearms do pass and it is the law that OC of long rifles is legal. In the future exercising the OC option would not be agitating the anti too? Or, are we trying to pass OC on the books only and then we discourage the practice of OC for firearms?

Simply put, OC of handguns is much less obvious and is considered less of a threat by the general public than OC of a long gun. Although I am confident that OC of handguns will be restricted by 90% of businesses and will end up being a novelty in time if it ever passes.

[mamabearCali]

I am out of this OC business. Nothing to gain from arguing. Maybe working silently do accomplish more useful things.
But let me know one thing, let us say if OC for sidearms do pass and it is the law that OC of long rifles is legal. In the future exercising the OC option would not be agitating the anti too? Or, are we trying to pass OC on the books only and then we discourage the practice of OC for firearms?

Simply put, OC of handguns is much less obvious and is considered less of a threat by the general public than OC of a long gun. Although I am confident that OC of handguns will be restricted by 90% of businesses and will end up being a novelty in time if it ever passes.

I have not seen that to be true here in VA. It is a novelty, but is becoming less so. I have not seen where OC handguns leads to more signs. I can think of one or two places close to me where all guns are restricted not just OC-ed guns.

[Cedar Park Dad]

. I can think of one or two places close to me where all guns are restricted not just OC-ed guns.

And therein lies the fear of CHLers.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but.....seriously? It's not like these conversations haven't already taken place. When you try often enough, and the answer that keeps comes back from them is that you don't love the 2nd Amendment or that you're a closet socialist because you won't embrace their tactics, who's shooting whom in the foot?

I apologize if I missed a sit down meeting with OCT. Perhaps you can remember when and where that took place? And not to be disrespectful or argumentative, but meeting over a keyboard on the internet accomplishes nothing. I would simply point out the many repetitive discussions of OC here on this forum. Lot of mud slinging and little else. Has anyone ever called a sit-down meeting with these folks?

I have had these discussions with militant OC advocates, and I am telling you that was the result. True, it wasn't with OCT specifically....it was with other members at OpenCarry.org. But even OTC has a problem in that its president, CJ Grisham, is a very problematic character for a number of reasons, all of which are well-documented and don't need to be listed here. If he is in charge of it, then I want nothing to do with it; because he's an "Elija Muhammed" rather than an "MLK". To the average muggle, guns are scary enough. But a firebrand with a gun is downright terrifying to them, and Grisham is a major firebrand.

Tell me, who got more done for the cause of equal rights and racial reconciliation.......Martin Luther King Jr., or Elijah Muhammed? Both were active in the civil rights cause, but MLK accomplished far more than Muhammed. All Muhammed did was drive the wedge between black and white Americans even deeper. The most radical, in your face, OC protesters are the Elijah Muhammeds of the gun world.

Again, respectfully, were you ever present at a MLK march? If you were, can you with all intellectual honesty say the mere presence of a large group of people of color marching through downtown was not seen as the ultimate in-your-face event? They didn't need to carry guns to bring the haters out of the woodwork. People were scared. Surely you haven't forgotten the images of the cops with billy clubs and dogs? And surely you know that the kind of rhetoric you offer makes any kind of working together toward a common goal impossible?

Absolutely, I have been to some these marches.....if not directly with MLK, then with his disciples. My (white) family was very involved in civil rights activism in the 1960s, and I am old enough that I was there, and I remember it. These people pulled it off because their "sword" was a protest sign or a banner, and not a Garand or M14 (analogous back then to our "black rifles" today). Things would have gone much worse if the protestors had been openly armed. Certainly, black men and women had the right to be PO'd enough back then to march with guns in their hands.....but they were wise, and they did not.

They scare the rest of the public, removing any common ground on which we can meet to convince them that gun owners/carriers are not the danger to them that they fear. Meanwhile, the rest of us to are in it for the long haul and recognize that it is a long fight, are the MLKs of the gun world. We are bridge-builders, not bridge-wreckers.

Again, respectfully, no. I am also under no illusion that the reason I am accepted in my travels is because my weapon is hidden. I sense there is a perceived difference between those, like you and me, who carry a gun loaded and ready to be used in a moments notice with someone carrying an unloaded rifle. You honestly think you won't scare the nervous nellies if your concealed firearm ever is seen or drawn? You honestly think those who witness the horrible scenario of our having to take a human life are ever going to look at us the same? There are a lot of threads on here and stories in the news that would contradict that view. My friend, you and I are the real scary people.

Of course, I do understand this......which is precisely why I think that the "aversion therapy" being practices by long gun OC activists is counterproductive. It took a long time of incrementally grinding away rights to get us to where we are today. To get us back to where we should be is going to take grinding it out over the long term and taking incremental steps. I liken it to training an animal. You don't try to get the dog to jump through your scary looking hoop right from the get go. First you get him to accept the presence of the hoop in the room. You let him sniff at it a bit. You get it closer and closer to him. You reach through the hoop to give him a treat, getting him a little closer to the hoop each time. You eventually get him to where he will reach his head through the hoop to get the treat. Pretty soon, he is jumping through the hoop to get the treat. We are the enlightened trainers, the antis are the dogs laboring in ignorance. Waving the hoop in their faces is not going to get them to jump through it.

And can we, as a group, really claim we are bridge builders when so many stones are cast so quickly at those who bring the subject of open carry up on this forum? Were I one of them, which I am not, I would never come here. I would hope that I can sit down face to face with an honest man and come to some understanding with him. I'm just as frustrated as anyone else about how some people act. But I refuse to believe everything that could be done has been done.

Perhaps not, but I can tell you that I have personally been the target of some vicious attacks on sites like OpenCarry.org simply because I agreed with the goals, but stated, respectfully, that I thought it would be more productive and lasting to take the long-term incrementalist approach. I was called a socialist and a hater of the Constitution (a document I revere second only to the Holy Bible), and other names. I never went back. They can all go pound sand. I have stated, MANY times, in MANY places, not just this forum, that I am a vocal advocate for Constitutional Carry. But I am also a realist who accepts reality that people laboring in ignorance will resist my attempts to enlighten them, unless I coat that enlightenment in honey. Waving a "big scary black gun" at them (and make no mistake, to a frightened muggle, carrying a slung AR is the same as "waving it at them") isn't going to bring them into the light.

I no longer try to reason with people like this because the most vocal of them—the instigators—have already proven that they can't be reasoned with. Wrestling with a pig just gets you covered in pig slop, and it annoys the pig. I call these people fools because they have already refused to listen to wisdom......not because I never tried to lend them any of it.

I have no idea how to respond to this, so I won't. I doubt MLK would have put it that way in his frustration, but I think I understand yours. I think I said something similar when my kids reached their teens.

Well, yes, I am frustrated by people whom I see as acting in a manner contrary to the long term interests of the cause. The fact is, I can accept honest disagreement about how to go about it. That won't change my opinion, but I can work alongside people with whom I have a disagreement in detail, but with whom I share a common long term goal. But when their reaction to my opinion is to call my integrity and patriotism into question, then I lose all desire to deal with them........and that is their doing, not mine.

They had a long gun OC demonstration in Hurst on Monday. My son went by it as he was driving over to my house in Grapevine. He said that he was tempted to go get his AR and join them. I said, do as you wish, but here are my reasons why I won't. In the end, he elected not to.

[TexasGal]

Somehow, I don't think the legalization of OC of handguns will make OCT leave their black rifles at home. They come across as an in your face group that will keep looking for ways to get in front of a camera and on the news.

How many more terrified teenage employees of fast food restaurants are going to be on the news because OCT didn't even bother to tell police they were going to show up someplace to demonstrate? Why not? Wanted to make a bigger splash? That happened last week a few miles from my house. The poor kids running a fast food restaurant were scared to death. If I was one of their parents, I know how I would feel about OC after that. Real bad guys hold these places up. It's not a nice part of town. The employee's calls to 911 brought a large number of police cars that could have been left on patrol if the police already known about the demonstration. And MDA was there to bring what sounded like the most common sense statements of the day to the camera...just pass a law that does not allow people like this to carry these guns.

It does not inspire trust or acceptance in people to bring an AR (the public does not see a modern sporting rifle) into a Walmart, a fast food restaurant, or any other place in an urban setting just because you can and you want more rights to carry other guns too. Sorry, but that is not the impression I want of gun owners in the general public's mind. It will lead nowhere we want to go.

[ShootDontTalk]

TAM....I respect your opinions and viewpoint and believe me, I understand the frustration. I simply want to point out that, respectfully to all involved, meeting on the internet or over the phone is way different than meeting in person. I believe some us are old enough and experienced enough to know that. There are probably very few of us who have not been attacked on the internet at one time or another. Even the phone loses some of the essential humanity that makes real consensus possible. My experience has been that people are far more reasonable in person. Of course, there are no guarantees, but in my view we haven't made a sincere effort until we try every avenue. I am certain of one thing. It can't get much worse by having a face to face.

We have often suggested that an armed society is a polite society. When using electronic means of communication that means absolutely nothing.

[VoiceofReason]

This only works if you truly understand that your real enemies want to take your guns - not just some, or only theirs, but all of our guns and repeal the 2nd Amendment. And they want to do that regardless of what OCT does. If not, then no, my idea won't help. I hope I'm not the only one that sees that.

I believe the 2nd amendment being repealed has about as much chance as a snow ball in you know where. The anti’s are going downhill so fast they are almost irrelevant.

As if things weren’t going badly enough for them, people are starting to bail out.

Mark Glaze, the head of Michael Bloomberg's ever-morphing anti-gun empire, has announced his departure from Mayors Against Illegal Guns, the group he helped form and steer since 2011.
for them
Does anyone believe 38 states would vote to repeal the 2nd amendment ?

A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States).

[Cedar Park Dad]

TAM....I respect your opinions and viewpoint and believe me, I understand the frustration. I simply want to point out that, respectfully to all involved, meeting on the internet or over the phone is way different than meeting in person. I believe some us are old enough and experienced enough to know that. There are probably very few of us who have not been attacked on the internet at one time or another. Even the phone loses some of the essential humanity that makes real consensus possible. My experience has been that people are far more reasonable in person. Of course, there are no guarantees, but in my view we haven't made a sincere effort until we try every avenue. I am certain of one thing. It can't get much worse by having a face to face.

Sure it can. Clearly you have no Slavic relatives who can tell that no matter how bad it is, it can get worse, and here's ten reasons how.

[ShootDontTalk]

If the antis are on the run and there is no need to be concerned, why all the wasted rhetoric on here?

[jmra]

I am out of this OC business. Nothing to gain from arguing. Maybe working silently do accomplish more useful things.
But let me know one thing, let us say if OC for sidearms do pass and it is the law that OC of long rifles is legal. In the future exercising the OC option would not be agitating the anti too? Or, are we trying to pass OC on the books only and then we discourage the practice of OC for firearms?

Simply put, OC of handguns is much less obvious and is considered less of a threat by the general public than OC of a long gun. Although I am confident that OC of handguns will be restricted by 90% of businesses and will end up being a novelty in time if it ever passes.

I have not seen that to be true here in VA. It is a novelty, but is becoming less so. I have not seen where OC handguns leads to more signs. I can think of one or two places close to me where all guns are restricted not just OC-ed guns.

Again, you don't live in Texas. When CC first passed in Texas it almost died because of the high number of gun buster signs that went up. If not for the passage of 30.06 CC would have died in Texas. If OC passes in Texas it is very likely that gun buster signs will be enough to prohibit OC. If that is the case, the gun buster signs currently in place would keep you from OCing in a high percentage of businesses. Once people in stores that do not have signs start complaining more signs will go up. It happened in the past when no one knew you were carrying, it will happen even more when the guns are visiable.