Is The CHL Proficiency Test Sufficient?

[SkipB]

I agree with what Charles said. I don't feel added training requirements are necessary. The primary reason for a CHL is personal protection. Most CHL instructors offer additional trailing for those that feel a need for it. I think going to the range a few times a year and shooting at a target is enough to keep a person comfortable and efficient with their weapon. For those that want more there are a lot of classes out there that offer more stringent courses. I think our CHL requirements should be kept simple and easy. There is some responsibility for those with a CHL to practice and stay efficient. That means just going to the range once in a while and shooting your weapon.

[The Annoyed Man]

Negative, no handling skills were taught.

I know I'm going to get hardcore flamed on this, but I don't think there is nearly enough training. Yes, it is your right to carry. The safety and proficiency levels of MANY people with CHLs is extremely low.

I've been to renewal classes (when that was still around) that multiple people had not fired their weapon since the last CHL proficiency test. That's completely irresponsible. I hate to say it, but I think there are more of those than people who go out even every six months...which is still not enough.

And many people have never looked at pornography since SCOTUS made it legal back when Hector was a pup. Should they have their 1st Amendment right suspended until they have demonstrated a knowledge of what is or isn't pornography?

Many people have continued to attend church AND vote according to their consciences, as filtered through the lens of their religious beliefs. Should their right to vote be suspended until they understand all the nuances of "separation of church and state"?

I am NOT trying to flame you, but I AM trying to point out a flaw in your reasoning....to whit....we either begin by believing that keeping and bearing arms is a right by default, or we begin by believing that the keeping and bearing of arms is a permission granted. This is an important distinction for the following reasons......

One view: If we believe that it is a right by default, then we also accept licensing as an unpleasant but politically necessary status quo restriction on the full expression of our RKBA, in order that society not mandate our arrest for expressing that right; and we accept that the push should be toward the relaxing of restrictions, not toward increasing them.

The other view: If we believe that it is a permission granted, then we accept that the state may dictate any terms it chooses, up to and including the wholesale abolition across the board of the keeping and bearing of arms.

I am assuming that you belong to the former group, as do most of us. If you believe the former, then you also believe that there is a burden placed upon the state to prove that those people who don't fire their weapons since the last qualification actually constitute a threat to the general welfare. I understand that you feel it is a threat, but show me the actual numbers which prove that regular range trips lead to fewer NDs and injuries and increase public safety. The fact is, you can't find those numbers. In fact, it would be my personal guess that, as the frequency of range trips for the shooting public goes up, the frequency of accidental gunshot wounds—either self-inflicted or not—goes up accordingly. In fact, I think it is guaranteed that, across the board, as more people practice drawing and firing, more people shoot themselves in the leg, or worse yet, accidentally shoot someone else.

This is simple statistics. We know for a fact that handling firearms can be dangerous if the rules are ignored. But, we also know that even with a conscientious application of safety, there are risks. We also know for a fact that as people try to increase their speed of presentation, the attendant risk of a ND goes up for the simple reason that the rules get stretched. Furthermore, you don't really have any idea (none of us do) of how many of those who had never fired their weapons since their last qualification, have or have not practiced drawing and dry-firing at home, or have fired other non-carry weapons like long guns for instance. (For example, I personally shoot my rifles about twice as often as I do my handguns.....and yet, the safety rules are all the same for both long gun and handgun platforms.) The dirty little secret at pistol ranges which conduct pistol competitions (like at my gun club - Dallas Pistol Club) is that self-inflicted gunshot injuries DO occasionally happen during matches, and during practice for matches, despite the best efforts of well-qualified RSOs, and despite the fact that members are well-versed in the rules of safety. It is a calculated risk that people accept in order to enter the matches......and they sign a release to that effect, absolving the match directors of any responsibility for that possibility.

So my conclusion is that you cannot separate risk from practice, and the more you practice, the more opportunity there is for risk. The risk may decrease for you as an individual the more you practice, but it never goes away completely, and across the board, I don't think you can say that is increased safety would be true for everyone. And some people are just plain stupid and will never learn. But the bottom line question is this: absent proof positive, does the state have a mandate to require more frequent qualifications to ensure that CHLs practice safe gun handling? The burden is on the state to prove that A) it has such a mandate, and B), that such a mandate will actually reduce unintended injuries rather than increasing them. If you believe that the burden is upon the individual CHL holder to prove it, then you are reflexively, and I am sure, unintentionally, coming down on the side of RKBA as a permission, not as a right.

I've tried to explain that with some logic, and without flaming you. Does what I say make any sense to you?

[RonW956]

A 4 hour course only covers the basic's in getting your license. What you guys do with that basic knowledge & how you further develope your knowledge & skills are your responsibility.

I do have some suggestions,

1. If you have any kind of history, for your own protection, clean it up, see if you qualify for an expunction & do it before carrying in public.

2. It is your responsibility to clearly understand the laws regarding using deadly force & the consquences of using it.

3. Contunue to seek additional training, be it NRA shooting competition, defensive training, shooting course's etc.

A CHL is a life long commitment & 24/7 responsibility. You are held at a higher level than joe average & we should all take pride at that & show it by constantly trying to improve both our knowledge of the laws & ability to handle a firearm.

[DEB]

I haven't read about the costs one should accrue before they can practice a right? I understand one should train, but with the cost of a good handgun, ammunition, cost of getting a CHL and then, if some here had their way, multiple training events? "Not intending to flame" Should the right of carrying a firearm be for only those who can put out a cost of up to $500 a year, and this after one had to pay a bit over a thousand dollars just to begin the process? If one reads DGU in the news, what was their training like prior to their life saving event? I would venture to say that the vast majority had little to no prior training. Then we go to, what is enough training? How much training must one have prior to being allowed to protect themselves with a firearm? I retired from the Military after several deployments, maybe the bar needs to be set at that level? Or, as shooting at paper isn't enough training, all potential CHL candidates must be IDPA qualified? Maybe a means test? One must accept one's fate, unless you make this much money? I don't know except for one certainty, and that is, I fall fully on the side of Constitutional Carry. We are not there yet and might never get there, but that is what drives my politics. I remember Texas prior to the CHL days, so we have come a long way, due to the efforts of folks like Charles.

[K5GU]

There have been lots of good comments in this thread and lots of them on topic and some of them expanding the "noise level". A couple of points I try to make to people in weapon discussions are probably more related to safe management, which includes gaining a thorough working knowledge of how to operate the weapon as well as how, where and when to carry the weapon. Not just how to aim and pull the trigger of a gun to score points on a target - just about anyone can do that.

Before I use (or carry) a firearm, whether it's a long gun or a handgun, I study it's features, learn what kind of trigger action it has - double action, single action, or both, how the safety mechanisms work, how to de-cock (if it has one), how to break it down for inspection and/or cleaning, safely load it, unload it, clear it, etc. before ever taking it and firing it. Most of these kinds of things could easily be covered in a good CHL class by a good instructor in the hours allowed by statute. This could be covered in the qualification portion of the class, which is not part of class instructions that the hours specified by state laws apply to.

I also think if a CHL class is handled in an efficient and thorough manner, the current state laws are fine the way they are, additional future changes notwithstanding, i.e, open carry, changes to the laws, etc.

[WildBill]

Before I use (or carry) a firearm, whether it's a long gun or a handgun, I study it's features, learn what kind of trigger action it has - double action, single action, or both, how the safety mechanisms work, how to de-cock (if it has one), how to break it down for inspection and/or cleaning, safely load it, unload it, clear it, etc. before ever taking it and firing it. Most of these kinds of things could easily be covered in a good CHL class by a good instructor in the hours allowed by statute. This could be covered in the qualification portion of the class, which is not part of class instructions that the hours specified by state laws apply to.

I also think if a CHL class is handled in an efficient and thorough manner, the current state laws are fine the way they are, additional future changes notwithstanding, i.e, open carry, changes to the laws, etc.

Even if I agreed with your premise, in my opinion, it is not possible to cover that many guns and people in a short period of time. In some classes the variety of firearms would be such that the instructor could not be familiar with all of them. I can also picture a spring popping out of a gun during the breakdown and the entire class on hands and knees looking in the grass for the missing part. I have been in larger classes where we had staggered times going to the range to get the entire class through the qualification.

[K5GU]

Before I use (or carry) a firearm, whether it's a long gun or a handgun, I study it's features, learn what kind of trigger action it has - double action, single action, or both, how the safety mechanisms work, how to de-cock (if it has one), how to break it down for inspection and/or cleaning, safely load it, unload it, clear it, etc. before ever taking it and firing it. Most of these kinds of things could easily be covered in a good CHL class by a good instructor in the hours allowed by statute. This could be covered in the qualification portion of the class, which is not part of class instructions that the hours specified by state laws apply to.

I also think if a CHL class is handled in an efficient and thorough manner, the current state laws are fine the way they are, additional future changes notwithstanding, i.e, open carry, changes to the laws, etc.

Even if I agreed with your premise, in my opinion, it is not possible to cover that many guns and people in a short period of time. In some classes the variety of firearms would be such that the instructor could not be familiar with all of them. I can also picture a spring popping out of a gun during the breakdown and the entire class on hands and knees looking in the grass for the missing part. I have been in larger classes where we had staggered times going to the range to get the entire class through the qualification.

Yes, watch out for those springs! Wear your eye protection! As the instructor could cover this with some good visual aids, not necessarily actual break-down of each gun.
I said, "a good class". A good class will not be so big that a quality session could not be had.

I think some of the best CHL classes limit the max number of students to 10 to 12 applicants.

The only legislated time constraints apply to the classroom/written test part, not the range qualification and proficiency part.

[sjfcontrol]

Before I use (or carry) a firearm, whether it's a long gun or a handgun, I study it's features, learn what kind of trigger action it has - double action, single action, or both, how the safety mechanisms work, how to de-cock (if it has one), how to break it down for inspection and/or cleaning, safely load it, unload it, clear it, etc. before ever taking it and firing it. Most of these kinds of things could easily be covered in a good CHL class by a good instructor in the hours allowed by statute. This could be covered in the qualification portion of the class, which is not part of class instructions that the hours specified by state laws apply to.

I also think if a CHL class is handled in an efficient and thorough manner, the current state laws are fine the way they are, additional future changes notwithstanding, i.e, open carry, changes to the laws, etc.

Even if I agreed with your premise, in my opinion, it is not possible to cover that many guns and people in a short period of time. In some classes the variety of firearms would be such that the instructor could not be familiar with all of them. I can also picture a spring popping out of a gun during the breakdown and the entire class on hands and knees looking in the grass for the missing part. I have been in larger classes where we had staggered times going to the range to get the entire class through the qualification.

Yes, watch out for those springs! Wear your eye protection! As the instructor could cover this with some good visual aids, not necessarily actual break-down of each gun.
I said, "a good class". A good class will not be so big that a quality session could not be had.

I think some of the best CHL classes limit the max number of students to 10 to 12 applicants.

The only legislated time constraints apply to the classroom/written test part, not the range qualification and proficiency part.

I take it you're NOT an instructor? Please go thru the training, and set up your own classes, and then if you're successful, you can give all the rest of us lessons.

[K5GU]

Before I use (or carry) a firearm, whether it's a long gun or a handgun, I study it's features, learn what kind of trigger action it has - double action, single action, or both, how the safety mechanisms work, how to de-cock (if it has one), how to break it down for inspection and/or cleaning, safely load it, unload it, clear it, etc. before ever taking it and firing it. Most of these kinds of things could easily be covered in a good CHL class by a good instructor in the hours allowed by statute. This could be covered in the qualification portion of the class, which is not part of class instructions that the hours specified by state laws apply to.

I also think if a CHL class is handled in an efficient and thorough manner, the current state laws are fine the way they are, additional future changes notwithstanding, i.e, open carry, changes to the laws, etc.

Even if I agreed with your premise, in my opinion, it is not possible to cover that many guns and people in a short period of time. In some classes the variety of firearms would be such that the instructor could not be familiar with all of them. I can also picture a spring popping out of a gun during the breakdown and the entire class on hands and knees looking in the grass for the missing part. I have been in larger classes where we had staggered times going to the range to get the entire class through the qualification.

Yes, watch out for those springs! Wear your eye protection! As the instructor could cover this with some good visual aids, not necessarily actual break-down of each gun.
I said, "a good class". A good class will not be so big that a quality session could not be had.

I think some of the best CHL classes limit the max number of students to 10 to 12 applicants.

The only legislated time constraints apply to the classroom/written test part, not the range qualification and proficiency part.

I take it you're NOT an instructor? Please go thru the training, and set up your own classes, and then if you're successful, you can give all the rest of us lessons.

I assume you mean CHL instructor and if so, your take is accurate. Not a CHL instructor. No thanks.