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I had a hard time figuring out where I wanted to put this article this morning...But I figured this was a s good a place as any...

My thoughts are two fold here on this, of course the title indicates a passionate issue, but more importantly the author mentions the backlogs in some states processing of CCW applications, most into the tens of thousands...

For what it is worth, I empathize tremendously with those in this forum in the "Waiting Area" threads who are having to wait extraordinarily long times for their licenses to be processed and sent to you...

But at the same time I am absolutely jazzed to no end that we have this situation...I believe it is sending a message to those who would, under normal circumstances have already pulled their own triggers on some horrendous gun-control, infringing bills in this political climate that would have us having kittens right now...

A side of me says that the political climate has been tempered by that letter 65 democrats sent to the President and the rest of the congress and Senate to not initiate gun-control bills or efforts now...

The other side of my Sybil personality says I do not trust them to be so restrained much longer...It IS and agenda they want to push, and they don't realize what the public is really doing (proactively) in obtaining a carry certifications that President Obama wants to executively order null and void...

Who is really daring who to blink first here???

Like I am thinking, this is more of a political issue, more than a technical, reloading, ammo supply, firearms in general topic...

And the overall temperature of this issue may be enough to ward off any draconian efforts to allow them to dictate policy till we get a chance to send a real message later this year in the local elections, and then in 2010 another message...And then in 2012...Change we knew was coming all along!!!

This article repeats the myth of a 500% tax on ammunition. While stating that people's fear of a 500% ammunition tax is driving sales is most likely correct, he proposed a 500% tax increase, not a 500% tax. There is a big, big difference there and incorrect articles like this are only further driving this fear buying and hoarding.

txmatt wrote:This article repeats the myth of a 500% tax on ammunition. While stating that people's fear of a 500% ammunition tax is driving sales is most likely correct, he proposed a 500% tax increase, not a 500% tax. There is a big, big difference there and incorrect articles like this are only further driving this fear buying and hoarding.

I didn't see that aspect of the article being the main theme, but since you brought it up please tell us the difference betwen a 500% tax "on", and a 500% tax increase "on" something...

Maybe a comparison on an item that is available for purchase by a citizen in the country that has a base unit price, yet the government has levied a 500% tax on, or tax increase on that item...

Firearms in recent history have had a tax on them for as long as I can remember, but that is regulated by another function of the government, so in Texas I go buy a Glock, it'll have an 8.25% sales tax on it (I stand to be corrected if I am wrong)...So if they levy a 500% tax on it, whether it is on top of the 8.25% rate, or on it's own, I see no big difference...

Pick a nominal price for a Glock 23, $550??? (Haven't bought one in years) apply a 500% tax on it and what does that come out to be??? $2750.00 per unit???

A box of 50 .40 WWB from Wally World, $14.00??? (Haven't bought one of those in a while either) apply a 500% tax on that and see what we are dealing with??? $70.00 per box???

If this happens, we be in heap big trouble kemosabe, you would be right about that, if my abacus is correct...I was not very good at math...

But what I got out of this article is certainly more than exemplifying or exaspirating an unlikely tax (myth or not) on what I thought was some pretty extraordinary issues...That I agree with you 100%...

The federal excise tax on ammunition is, I believe, 11%. Unlike state sales tax, this isn't something applied after the purchase so you never see it, but you do pay it. Obama proposed (years ago, not in the 2008 election that I'm aware of) a 500% increase in that tax. This would make the federal tax rate 55%, NOT 500%. Hence the big difference.

Example:
$20 box of ammo currently taxed (federal) at 11% => $22.20

$20 box of ammo under the tax Obama proposed (55%) => $31.00

$20 box of ammo taxed under the mythical 500% tax => $120.00

this is a huge difference and the article perpetuating this myth does no one any favors. I would hate to see them implement this tax increase, but I think bigger ammo threats are things like microstamping, banning "armor piercing" rounds, banning lead.

The main thrust of the article that people are afraid and are buying as a result is correct

edited for clarity

I'm hoarding!

...But I'm not camping at the stores and buying factory ammo. I've churned out all the cast bullets I had on the Dillon and pretty much shot them all up over the last few weekends, and now that I can't find any more cast bullets to buy (1,000 rounds ordered from ReloadsNMore about two weeks ago with a same day email reply saying they are sold out and my order MIGHT be filled in a couple of weeks) I've ordered a full casting pot setup from Lee, including a six cavity mold.

That's supposed to arrive tomorrow. I have an initial stock of nearly 100 lbs of wheel weights, thanks to my brother. This Saturday I'll be casting. I plan to load up until I run out of powder/brass/primers. I have no intention of ever buying factory .45 ACP again as long as I can get my hands on reloading supplies. Even for carry ammo I'll just buy jacketed 230 Gr. hollow point bullets and load 'em myself.

Everything I load is going to be used at the range by me, for me, and If I develop a surplus it will be vacuum packed and stored in the safe until I need it.

Of course, the reloading alternative isn't a perfect solution. It's cheaper cash wise, but if you start figuring in the time you have to put into it...well, savings tend to dwindle some. Then throw in the fact that wheel weights and other casting material is getting hard to come by, and none of it is free anymore; and people are hoarding primers, brass, and powder, too.

With lead being drummed out of the market in favor of green alternatives I'm sure the new casting equipment will be useless within a few years, but I plan on getting as many cycles out of it as I can until then. I'm planning to keep an eye out for old sail boat graveyards to see if I can score one of those big chunks of lead ballast...maybe even find someone with old forklift counter-weights.

Trips to the range are just going to end up being a rich man's game eventually if something doesn't change.

Tfrazier wrote-

"Trips to the range are just going to end up being a rich man's game eventually if something doesn't change".

That's the plan, you guessed it!

I'm attempting to but it's getting pretty hard to find as of late.

I haven't bought a single box of ammo in almost a year, but that's because I am a hoarder and I did some massive stocking up early to mid 2008. If the prices ever become reasonable again, I'll be doubling or tripling my stockpile.

In the meantime, I'm just sitting on my stash and shooting whenever I wish.

I was listening to Gun Talk (radio show) this past weekend and Mr. Gresham (the host of the show) made an interesting point. He mentioned that a lot of people are buying ammo for guns they don't even own, and he predicted that eventually the prices will come crashing down, and those people will then be selling their ammo for pennies on the dollar.

If and when that day comes, I'll be ready with my wallet.

TheArmedFarmer wrote: ...mentioned that a lot of people are buying ammo for guns they don't even own...

Yep, I had a guy tell me he was doing exactly that the other day. I asked him why and he said he wanted to be sure he had .380, .40, and .45 in case he ever got one of those caliber guns, plus he figured he could always resale the ammo at a higher price. He was adamant that the current administration and congress will eventually shut the firearms market down by banning ammo or taxing it out of viability.

Even though we should be concerned that their success at such an action is in the realm of possibility, I think he probably bought into the whole disolving bullet theory back in '65 as well.

I'm not sure if you need a type 06 FFL to resale ammo you bought from a retailer for a profit (I know a type 06 is required if you're reloading and selling for a profit), but it's pretty goofy to me to go hoarding ammo you may or may not want in the future even if it is legal to resale it for profit. Not the best investment when you could take all that money and spend it on a gun instead IMO.

Folks are free to spend their money however they want, and this is just something we have to live with in a free market...but a free market is still the best kind to have (although it's under serious attack at the moment). I wonder how many of those folks experiencing the current lack of supply and the high prices with us actually made it to the voting booths last year...hope they're learning their lesson.

I knew the paranoia was going to set in (see http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... earms.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; published 11/18/08) but I just didn't have much spare cash to stock up on ammo back then.

tfrazier wrote: I knew the paranoia was going to set in (see http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... earms.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; published 11/18/08) but I just didn't have much spare cash to stock up on ammo back then.

I'm really kind of surprised how long it has persisted, especially considering no real proposals as of yet regarding ammunition regulation from the administration. Hopefully things will settle out and there will be good deals to be had in a month or two.

txmatt wrote:The federal excise tax on ammunition is, I believe, 11%. Unlike state sales tax, this isn't something applied after the purchase so you never see it, but you do pay it. Obama proposed (years ago, not in the 2008 election that I'm aware of) a 500% increase in that tax. This would make the federal tax rate 55%, NOT 500%. Hence the big difference.

Example:
$20 box of ammo currently taxed (federal) at 11% => $22.20

$20 box of ammo under the tax Obama proposed (55%) => $31.00

$20 box of ammo taxed under the mythical 500% tax => $120.00

this is a huge difference and the article perpetuating this myth does no one any favors. I would hate to see them implement this tax increase, but I think bigger ammo threats are things like microstamping, banning "armor piercing" rounds, banning lead.

The main thrust of the article that people are afraid and are buying as a result is correct

edited for clarity

Now we see it... good stuff!

txmatt wrote:

tfrazier wrote: I knew the paranoia was going to set in (see http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... earms.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; published 11/18/08) but I just didn't have much spare cash to stock up on ammo back then.

I'm really kind of surprised how long it has persisted, especially considering no real proposals as of yet regarding ammunition regulation from the administration. Hopefully things will settle out and there will be good deals to be had in a month or two.

I'm kinda surprised that all It took is a threat to do it...

Yes, I do believe things will calm down, before the big bang occurs...

I do believe there is a lot paranoia, fear, and misinformation being circulated. There is a lot of stuff out there that is pure speculation of what someone thinks is going to happen.

I think Steve's signature on his posts says it all...

"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.”-- Steve

Am I hording ammo...NO, I'm broke!!

-geo

mbw wrote:Tfrazier wrote-

"Trips to the range are just going to end up being a rich man's game eventually if something doesn't change".

That's the plan, you guessed it!

And the problem is that before long, no one's going to be rich!

Barack Obama wrote: I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.

I guess you could say that I'm "hoarding," although by the standards of many on this board, I'm not anywhere near having enough yet. Let's just say that I have, on average, several hundred, but less than 500 rounds of each of the calibers I own firearms for - except for .223, of which I have the princely sum of about 600 rounds. 

What is different is that I'm not shooting any of it up and replacing it as used. I'm not so much concerned with the price of ammo, as I am the availability of it. After recent trips to Bass Pro, Cabela's, and Cheaper Than Dirt, I've realized that I should be very careful about expending 9mm and .40 S&W, and somewhat less careful about expending .45 ACP. Also, I've noticed that premium self defense ammunition is still fairly available in all three calibers, while it is the ball "practice" ammo that has vanished from the shelves. That tells me that people are stocking up with a different threat in mind than dispatching a mugger in a gas station. Anyway, until ball ammo becomes more available, I guess I'll just make fewer range trips - but I'll practice with what I carry.