Page 1 of 2
Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:26 pm
by ELB
This seems to flying around the other gun boards, hadn't seen it land here yet... some excerpts below, definitely go RTWT
http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-R ... rying-guns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On September 8, 2009, United States District Judge Bruce D. Black of the United States District Court for New Mexico entered summary judgment in a civil case for damages against Alamogordo, NM police officers.
...
...the police entered the movie theater, physically seized Mr. St. John from his seat, took him outside, disarmed him, searched him, obtained personally identifiable information from his wallet, and only allowed him to re-enter the theater after St. John agreed to secure his gun in his vehicle. Mr. St. John was never suspected of any crime nor issued a summons for violating any law.
...
On these facts, Judge Black concluded as a matter of law that the police violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendment because they seized and disarmed him even though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot."
...
Notably, Judge Black denied the police officers' requested "qualified immunity," a judicially created doctrine allowing government officials acting in good faith to avoid liability for violating the law where the law was not "clearly established." In this case, Judge Black concluded that:
[see article for what the judge said.
]
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:47 pm
by AEA
Cool!........
Too bad we can't send this Judge to the Supreme Court!
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:47 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
This is a great and correct decision. Detaining someone for that which is not illegal is a clear ยง1983 violation. I hope it's upheld at the appellate level.
Chas.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:59 pm
by DONT TREAD ON ME
This is great. Too bad more judges cant be like this.
Sent an e-mail to the lawyer thanking him for standing up for the 2A!
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:13 pm
by joe817
Thanks ELB for posting a great news article!
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:36 pm
by pdubyoo
AEA wrote:Cool!........
Too bad we can't send this Judge to the Supreme Court!
Can you imagine the angry astroturf mobs with swastikas??
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:14 pm
by lonewolf
It's very nice to hear that there is a judge somewhere that has some common sense. It's unfortunate that so many of our laws have been subject to "interpretation" over the years. There is always someone, somewhere legislating from the bench.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:26 pm
by Seburiel
Not to be dense (though, at times, I am) What does this mean for Texans?
Obviously we can't OC handguns here at the present time, but what about longarm carry? Will this mean that we shouldn't worry about the 'investigative stop' scenario here?
just curious.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:40 pm
by mgood
Yes, open carry is perfectly legal in New Mexico. But it is still unusual enough that a lot of people there don't even know it's legal and it still raises eyebrows at times.
I worked at a gun shop in New Mexico where we were encouraged to open carry. Frequently, while going to lunch or to or from work, I open carried into other businesses. Never got harassed or anything though some people would ask if I was a cop or ask me about the legality of carrying.
My boss, the owner of the gun shop, frequently explained to people that while open carry is legal, any business has a right to refuse service to anyone as long as they don't discriminate against race, sex, religion, national origin, or sexual preference. He said that if he goes into a store and the manager says, "Sir, would you mind not bringing that in here? It makes my other customers nervous." No problem. He would go out and lock it in his vehicle and then he'd be free to come back in.
From that article, it looks like the theater people never said anything to Mr. St. John. They just saw a "man with a gun" and called the police.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:51 pm
by C-dub
Seburiel wrote:Not to be dense (though, at times, I am) What does this mean for Texans?
Obviously we can't OC handguns here at the present time, but what about longarm carry? Will this mean that we shouldn't worry about the 'investigative stop' scenario here?
just curious.
I don't know that it means anything for us in Texas. It does, however, mean that when visiting any of the other states that we would be allowed to openly carry we can be just a little more assured that we won't have our rights violated.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:00 pm
by wheelgun1958
mgood wrote:He said that if he goes into a store and the manager says, "Sir, would you mind not bringing that in here? It makes my other customers nervous." No problem. He would go out and lock it in his vehicle and then he'd be free to come back in.
A better answer would be "Fine, I'll take my business elsewhere."
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:13 pm
by mgood
wheelgun1958 wrote:mgood wrote:He said that if he goes into a store and the manager says, "Sir, would you mind not bringing that in here? It makes my other customers nervous." No problem. He would go out and lock it in his vehicle and then he'd be free to come back in.
A better answer would be "Fine, I'll take my business elsewhere."
I agree, and I don't think he shopped at many places that wouldn't allow him to carry. But that was just his spiel when explaining the law to customers of his. This man firmly believes you should be able to purchase hand grenades at drive-through windows. The people here would like him.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:37 pm
by Jeremae
As a cartoon once said (dogbert I think)
I long to buy booze, cigarettes and ammunition from the same drive thru and use it all up before I get home.
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
by GaryAdrian
Jeremae wrote:As a cartoon once said (dogbert I think)
I long to buy booze, cigarettes and ammunition from the same drive thru and use it all up before I get home.
Then you need to live in Uvalde, Texas. There they have an ATF store. It sells Liquor , Guns and the best Cigars in the county!
This is not my picture but I have been to this place.
http://www.pbase.com/dgaar/image/104620387
The brick side is the liquor store and the tan connecting bld. is the gun store.
ONLY in TEXAS!
Re: Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for OC
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:37 pm
by Keith B
GaryAdrian wrote:Jeremae wrote:As a cartoon once said (dogbert I think)
I long to buy booze, cigarettes and ammunition from the same drive thru and use it all up before I get home.
Then you need to live in Uvalde, Texas. There they have an ATF store. It sells Liquor , Guns and the best Cigars in the county!
This is not my picture but I have been to this place.
http://www.pbase.com/dgaar/image/104620387
The brick side is the liquor store and the tan connecting bld. is the gun store.
ONLY in TEXAS!
Combination package liquor and sporting goods stores are actually an old concept. Growing up as a kid in Missouri I know of at least 5 or 6 of them in my small hometown alone. It is only in the last 15 - 20 years that they have become seperated. However, a couple of them still exist and do a good business in all arenas.