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Obama Administration's Proposed Ban on Domestic Sale of Ivory Could Impact Gun Owners. http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/artic ... wners.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any firearm, firearm accessory, or knife that contains ivory, no matter how big or small, would not be able to be sold in the United States, unless it is more than 100 years old. Does this mean the gun or knife is over 100 years old or the ivory is over 100 years old. Being a small time amateur antique collector I can't help but wonder who would determine the age of a piece of carved ivory or the age of ivory gun grips or inlay?

It is comparatively easy to determine elephant ivory compared to walrus or hippo "ivory" etc. but as far as I know the only way to determine the age of ivory is carbon dating. Throw in a little extra confusion in that mastodon ivory is presently legal to import and sell and you have the potential of accidently becoming a criminal. If the next president is Republican, Obummer will leave a big mess to clean up.

I thought that there was already a ban on importing ivory.

WildBill wrote:I thought that there was already a ban on importing ivory.

there is on one presently
???????

WildBill wrote:I thought that there was already a ban on importing ivory.

As with most laws, there are exceptions. I know that if you are a Native American or an Alaska Native, you can sell ivory that is fashioned in to something and just not raw ivory. I think it has to be logged and tagged. I also think that if you can show rightful ownership prior to the ban, you may sell it.

When I used to travel to Alaska, the Eskimos used to have ivory stands selling walrus ivory in rather large "trinkets" that people would buy and fashion in to other ivory products. I don't know if this is legal or not.

The 100 years doesn't make sense. Ivory wasn't illegal to import 100 years ago. My dad brought items made of ivory home after WWII from India where he was during the war; as I'm sure many others did. Tourist trade and hunters in countries with ivory were responsible for no telling how much ivory being brought into the US before the ban. Although I don't believe it's the intent of the law I can foresee some stupidly zealous agent, or bureaucrat going after someone for "illegal ivory" as they did Gibson Guitar for "illegal" wood. One is left in the position of proving their innocence, which is fundamentally and constitutionally wrong.

puma guy wrote:The 100 years doesn't make sense. Ivory wasn't illegal to import 100 years ago. My dad brought items made of ivory home after WWII from India where he was during the war; as I'm sure many others did. Tourist trade and hunters in countries with ivory were responsible for no telling how much ivory being brought into the US before the ban. Although I don't believe it's the intent of the law I can foresee some stupidly zealous agent, or bureaucrat going after someone for "illegal ivory" as they did Gibson Guitar for "illegal" wood. One is left in the position of proving their innocence, which is fundamentally and constitutionally wrong.

That's the whole point of the 100 years....to make it more difficult to prove you're not in violation. Laws like this are designed to give the Feds a pretext to harass those they don't like, for whatever reason, such as people who don't support the socialist agenda.

Dang, guess I need to hide my Nutmeg grips. Seriously if you've thought of getting any get them quickly. I'm lucky I got mine several years ago. The Nutmeg sports site is already talking about it. http://www.nutmegsports.com/ By the way they are the official ivory grip supplier for Colt.

Laws were passed in (I believe) 1987? that banned the importation of elephant ivory to stop poaching and the resulting slaughter of elephants. Walrus, hippo and (believe it or not) mastodon ivory was legal to own and still is. A person could legally own “pre-ban” (pre 1987) elephant ivory. Legal elephant ivory had to be certified and tagged. Many other countries enacted similar laws.

Now they are saying that the legal trade in “pre-ban” elephant ivory makes the trade in illegal ivory easier so they are changing the law to go back 100 years. I don’t know the status of ivory owned or on the market between 1887 and 1987.

The objective of the laws is good because the African elephant is now endangered due to so many being killed for the ivory. The laws however have been so convoluted that one must consult an ivory expert and run it past an attorney before buying an old pocket knife in an antique store.

I have done my homework on antiques and collectables to keep from being burned by fakes. There is a lot of fake antiques, gems, collectables and WWII memorabilia on the market now. Most of it originates in China. If you don’t know how to recognize these things, it could cost you $$$.

I used to make knives, knife handles and carve scrimshaw (thinking about taking up the latter again). Mastodon ivory is very easy to detect as is any fossil ivory. It will have grey veins in it and fine black fissures, the remainder being almost an amber color. As to antique ivory, I would look for and buy antique carved tusks, especially broken ones and slice them up for handles and medallions. I would always keep one of the scraps with the carved surface as an archive, should I ever be challenged. Ivory with any age will start to turn a cream, even yellow color as it is handled. C14 dating is expensive and unless they are pretty sure your inlay or pistol grip is brand new, not likely that a charge would be forthcoming.

Doesn't mean that it won't be confiscated and stashed in that 100,000 square foot warehouse filled with illegal ivory and kept, left to rot by the U.S. Government. Can you imagine the billions of dollars that the government could make, and use to fund game conservation efforts, if they would take those tons of ivory, catalog and license them and then sell them?

I wouldn't count myself as the biggest Ayn Rand fan because I don't agree with some of the things she had to say. However, whenever I see one of these types of laws, I immediately think of the following passage from "Atlas Shrugged":

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.”

There aren't enough Federal agents to go around and search out every piece of ivory that they are now retroactively declaring to be illegal (would that be ex post facto?). This is an intimidation law, plain and simple.

The objective of the laws is good because the African elephant is now endangered due to so many being killed for the ivory.

No American law is going to help any wild elephants.

All those poached elephant tusks are going to China.

Ask Gibson Guitars about the costly and wrongful confiscation of pre-ban materials.

Redneck_Buddha wrote:Ask Gibson Guitars about the costly and wrongful confiscation of pre-ban materials.

They were a political target, there is no doubt. C.F. Martin used the same wood and remained unmolested. C.F. Martin was a big contributor to the Democrats while Gibson execs gave to Republicans. Can anyone say "political enemies list".

K.Mooneyham wrote:I wouldn't count myself as the biggest Ayn Rand fan because I don't agree with some of the things she had to say. However, whenever I see one of these types of laws, I immediately think of the following passage from "Atlas Shrugged":

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.”

There aren't enough Federal agents to go around and search out every piece of ivory that they are now retroactively declaring to be illegal (would that be ex post facto?). This is an intimidation law, plain and simple.

Exactly. Excellent quote.

puma guy wrote:

Redneck_Buddha wrote:Ask Gibson Guitars about the costly and wrongful confiscation of pre-ban materials.

They were a political target, there is no doubt. C.F. Martin used the same wood and remained unmolested. C.F. Martin was a big contributor to the Democrats while Gibson execs gave to Republicans. Can anyone say "political enemies list".

“After we win this election, it’s our turn. Payback time. Everyone not with us is against us and they better be ready because we don’t forget. The ones who helped us will be rewarded, the ones who opposed us will get what they deserve. There is going to be hell to pay. Congress won’t be a problem for us this time. No election to worry about after this is over and we have two judges ready to go.” - Valerie Jarret (treasonous Obama henchman)