Carrying a 5" 1911 is hard

[Taypo]

I don't carry my gov model, because it's too dangerous cocked and locked, with a round in the chamber. And what would be the point if it was not. So I got a PX4 Storm .45, which I can de-cock to DAO.

I know a little off-topic, but you might want to rethink your EDC.

How is a 1911, properly holstered, trigger covered, with a slide safety and grip safety, more dangerous than any other holstered pistol?

I'm guessing because the hammer is back and its scary?

[Countryside]

I don't carry my gov model, because it's too dangerous cocked and locked, with a round in the chamber. And what would be the point if it was not. So I got a PX4 Storm .45, which I can de-cock to DAO.

I know a little off-topic, but you might want to rethink your EDC.

How is a 1911, properly holstered, trigger covered, with a slide safety and grip safety, more dangerous than any other holstered pistol?

I'm guessing because the hammer is back and its scary?

LOL. That's kinda what I was thinking.

Oh and Taypo...I noticed that is post number 666 for you! Post again quickly or bad luck will follow you!

[Taypo]

I don't carry my gov model, because it's too dangerous cocked and locked, with a round in the chamber. And what would be the point if it was not. So I got a PX4 Storm .45, which I can de-cock to DAO.

I know a little off-topic, but you might want to rethink your EDC.

How is a 1911, properly holstered, trigger covered, with a slide safety and grip safety, more dangerous than any other holstered pistol?

I'm guessing because the hammer is back and its scary?

LOL. That's kinda what I was thinking.

Oh and Taypo...I noticed that is post number 666 for you! Post again quickly or bad luck will follow you!

667 bump!

Thanks for the catch on that

[Feed&Guns]

I don't carry my gov model, because it's too dangerous cocked and locked, with a round in the chamber. And what would be the point if it was not. So I got a PX4 Storm .45, which I can de-cock to DAO.

I know a little off-topic, but you might want to rethink your EDC.

Guessing you'll catch a lot of heat on this comment! I'm also guessing you detest any striker fired pistols. I carry my Glock 19 everyday with one in the chamber and I guess based on what you're saying it's even more dangerous than the 1911 since it doesn't have an external safety. Everyone is entitled to their opinions no matter how wrong they are. In fact, before I knew anything about guns, I approached a cop at the courthouse and said, "Hey! Did you know your gun is cocked??" (He had a 1911 for his duty weapon). He said (abruptly), "Ya, it's supposed to be like that." I said, "really? Seems dangerous. Just thought maybe you didn't know." I walked off and he gave me the "who the hell are you?" look. Many years later, when I developed an interest in guns, I learned about the "cocked and locked" carry method. I flashed back to how dumb I must have looked to that cop.

[Feed&Guns]

On the other hand, carrying anything with NO round in the chamber is a lot more dangerous.

Don't want to take this off topic, but this is a mouth full of wisdom yet some still just don't understand how dangerous it is to carry with an empty chamber thinking they can see the threat, draw, chamber a round, point, and then shoot.

I do a demonstration with many of my customers who are new to guns. I hand them a red ASP training gun. I say, "Okay. Now, put this where you'd carry your gun. Pretend like it's under your shirt or in your purse. When I say, "bad guy! bad guy!" I want you to shoot the threat."

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM draw the gun and just go "bang". Then I take the gun out of their hand and say, "see, it's not instinctive to disengage the safety and especially not to rack the slide." "Unless you are planning on training 1000 rounds a month and on every draw, dropping the safety and charging the weapon, you need to consider a revolver or a striker fired gun with no external safety." "Instinct is to point and shoot. If you don't train otherwise, you need a weapon that fits your instinct."

Their faces look blank for a few seconds while it sinks in and then the light bulb comes on. Every one of them say, "ya. that makes sense."

As such, I have very few handguns guns in my store that have a thumb safety (except my personal Sig 1911 Scorpion used to show off my Osprey suppressor). Revolvers and striker fired, no external safeties are what I like to promote.

[Taypo]

On the other hand, carrying anything with NO round in the chamber is a lot more dangerous.

Don't want to take this off topic, but this is a mouth full of wisdom yet some still just don't understand how dangerous it is to carry with an empty chamber thinking they can see the threat, draw, chamber a round, point, and then shoot.

I do a demonstration with many of my customers who are new to guns. I hand them a red ASP training gun. I say, "Okay. Now, put this where you'd carry your gun. Pretend like it's under your shirt or in your purse. When I say, "bad guy! bad guy!" I want you to shoot the threat."

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM draw the gun and just go "bang". Then I take the gun out of their hand and say, "see, it's not instinctive to disengage the safety and especially not to rack the slide." "Unless you are planning on training 1000 rounds a month and on every draw, dropping the safety and charging the weapon, you need to consider a revolver or a striker fired gun with no external safety." "Instinct is to point and shoot. If you don't train otherwise, you need a weapon that fits your instinct."

Their faces look blank for a few seconds while it sinks in and then the light bulb comes on. Every one of them say, "ya. that makes sense."

As such, I have very few handguns guns in my store that have a thumb safety (except my personal Sig 1911 Scorpion used to show off my Osprey suppressor). Revolvers and striker fired, no external safeties are what I like to promote.

Personally, I think it's all a matter of preference. I'm a clumsy old guy that bumps into counters and doorframes a lot at work, so a 1911 feels safer to me than a striker fired. I know that it's not necessarily true, but it doesn't override the part of my brain that controls the feels.

For instance, at the range with my new VP9 this weekend I realized that I have no idea how to shoot a plastic gun or where to put my thumb if its not riding a safety.

[OlBill]

On the other hand, carrying anything with NO round in the chamber is a lot more dangerous.

Don't want to take this off topic, but this is a mouth full of wisdom yet some still just don't understand how dangerous it is to carry with an empty chamber thinking they can see the threat, draw, chamber a round, point, and then shoot.

I do a demonstration with many of my customers who are new to guns. I hand them a red ASP training gun. I say, "Okay. Now, put this where you'd carry your gun. Pretend like it's under your shirt or in your purse. When I say, "bad guy! bad guy!" I want you to shoot the threat."

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM draw the gun and just go "bang". Then I take the gun out of their hand and say, "see, it's not instinctive to disengage the safety and especially not to rack the slide." "Unless you are planning on training 1000 rounds a month and on every draw, dropping the safety and charging the weapon, you need to consider a revolver or a striker fired gun with no external safety." "Instinct is to point and shoot. If you don't train otherwise, you need a weapon that fits your instinct."

Their faces look blank for a few seconds while it sinks in and then the light bulb comes on. Every one of them say, "ya. that makes sense."

As such, I have very few handguns guns in my store that have a thumb safety (except my personal Sig 1911 Scorpion used to show off my Osprey suppressor). Revolvers and striker fired, no external safeties are what I like to promote.

You don't need to shoot 1,000 rounds to learn manipulation. In fact you don't need to shoot at all. A thousand repetitions a day of presenting the weapon from the holster is all that is necessary. And it's free.

Providing you do it correctly every time of course.

[Feed&Guns]

It is a tool for your belt. Why restrict the tools available to save your life?

I can give you one very solid tactical reason I carry a 1911 at times. IF I am ever confronted with a rifle or even shotgun wielding threat, I need to be able to direct precision fire at ranges well beyond 25 yards.

I shot 1911's in NRA competition routinely at 50 yards. I could place 5 rounds in a group that measured less than 2 inches - offhand. I know of no other handgun that can deliver that level of accuracy without major modifications that disqualify it for daily carry. In fact, I practiced for matches by offhand shooting at 100 yards. I could maintain 5-6 inch groups at that range. That is AK47 level accuracy. The secret is the 1911 is a single action weapon. The trigger is markedly superior to the vast majority of handguns available for defense.

Do I only carry a 1911? Of course not. Is the 1911 the best handgun for every task? Of course not. But given that EVERY weapon is a compromise, the 1911 does some things better than any other weapon. For that reason alone, it should be considered.

Two things I have learned in 6 decades of shooting: choose a good round loading an adequate bullet, and place your shots properly. The 1911 achieves both of these critical objectives.

You're far more experienced than I am, but I have several issues with your rationale.

1. In self defense situations (which is what we're supposedly talking about...not NRA pistol matches or combat where you're out of rifle ammo), if you're 25 yards or more away, you're supposed to be finding ways to seek cover and avoid the confrontation (supposedly). You're trying to survive the situation, not complete the mission. Most bad situations happen inside 10 yards and at 25 yards, they are generally avoidable. At 50-100 yards, you can barely see the threat. Most of the time, you're not going to be in the Bank of America shoot out or hiding from some threat on the UT tower.

2. I shoot my modified Glock 19 (not quite a race gun) at the range and ring the 6" steel at 35 yards regularly. Not shooting Xs, but definitely minute of man sized groups even at 50 yards. I doubt in a threat situation, though, I could hold that perfect sight picture and stack them up like that.

3. Despite your advantage in experience, I bet I can put 15 rounds of my 9mm into the threat faster than you could put 10 rounds of your select ammo. Why? Because I don't have to do a mag change. Furthermore, it's interesting that the people with the labs that do all the testing are going full circle back to 9mm. You hit on that a bit that the type of ammo matters. Things like the Hornady Critical Defense/Duty are great rounds and make the 9mm much more effective than it maybe used to be. Texas DPS just adopted the Sig P320 in 9mm as their new weapon. They dumped the Sig 226/229 in 357Sig. Even though the 357Sig had more energy, they found the shooters controlled the 9mm better (more effective shot placement) and, of course, the ammo is cheap and abundant. More practice means better shooters (which you kind of touched on...shot placement). If a modestly interested shooter can pay $12/box of 9mm versus $21/box of 45ACP, they might practice more. I really like my Sig 1911 in 45ACP, but I carry a Glock 19. I'm not going to carry an extra mag. I just know that's not me. If I can't get the job done with 15+1 (15 in reality), then either I'm dead or the threat is gone.

Now, if I was in combat and was packing out a ton of mags anyway, I might carry something different. But we're talking about personal protection, not Iraq. Likewise, part of the move to the 5.56 in the rifle rounds was because the theory was that more rounds of a smaller but effective cartridge was better than fewer, bigger rounds. You can argue about "effective cartridge", but the idea was more = better. Right or wrong, it's not the first time "more = better" won out.

[Countryside]

Regardless of what you carry...1911...Glock....revolver...you need to practice with it to the point that you are extremely familiar with it. It needs to become an extension of yourself. And you need to carry a gun that is ready to go. When I draw my chambered, cocked 1911 it is instinctive to flip the slide safety down. If you encounter an armed bad guy...chances are his gun is already going to have one in the chamber and ready to go. I doubt very seriously he will grant your request as you ask him for a moment while you draw, chamber a round and ready your gun.

[Feed&Guns]

@OlBill - good point about repetitions. You could do 1000 "manipulations" in your living room. But, my point to them was that most people simply aren't going to even do that. They're going to get their CHL, buy a gun, and then shoot it twice a year maybe. They should practice, but most won't. It's like me and my gym membership. Pay every month. Haven't been in over 6 months though. And it's practically across the street from my house. I did do a few pushups in my living room the other day. Then my dog licked me in my face so I quit and played with the dog. Most people won't train so I recommend a gun that comes most naturally. "Point and shoot". And maybe even consider a laser. I hate for them to get dependent on it, and I don't have one on my carry gun, but for people who simply won't ever train but want to feel safer because they carry... that's how I'm thinking about it. And when they ask about me not having a laser, I tell them I'd be happy to sell them the amount of ammo I shoot each month (in a nice way).

@Taypo - OT, how do you like that VP9? I really thought I wanted one because I liked the grip concept. I carry a glock and didn't like the grip. Thought about M&P followed by XDM and then I saw the VP9. Drool. Then I held one (at Knob Creek, no less, while on vacation crossing the country). Didn't care for the feel for some reason. HKs are great (so I hear) but I was really turned off by the feel. It felt, oddly enough, cheap and flimsy. Reminds me of wanting a Jeep Wrangler so bad until the one day I drove one and hated the feeling of nearly rolling over around curves. Cured my wants in one drive. Now I just put a Hogue grip sleeve on my G19 and feel much better. I'm sure it shoots well like an HK should.

[Taypo]

I love it already. I was shopping for a G19, almost bought one and lost a coin flip to the wife on who got to buy the next gun (She went CZ). I did a little more research and ended up liking the grip better than the Glock. It was like holding a 2x4. I don't get a flimsy feel at all from it - the grip panels are locked tight on mine.
It's way more accurate than I am at this point.

[Feed&Guns]

I love it already. I was shopping for a G19, almost bought one and lost a coin flip to the wife on who got to buy the next gun (She went CZ). I did a little more research and ended up liking the grip better than the Glock. It was like holding a 2x4. I don't get a flimsy feel at all from it - the grip panels are locked tight on mine.
It's way more accurate than I am at this point.

Ya, I almost got rid of my Glock bc I couldn't get past the 2x4 feeling. Really liked the M&P so I thought I'd love the VP9. The Hogue grip sleeve fixed the 2x4 effect, though. I have a Hogue from Sig on my P238 and love it. By contrast, the straight sides on my wife's P938 are obnoxious. Small, straight grip. But I like that grip concept on my Sig 1911. Guess the full size makes the diff in that grip angle and geometry.

Maybe if I held the VP9 again I'd change my mind. But the few seconds I did hold it I was a little disappointed. Had really high hopes. Maybe the guy's crappy attitude at Knob Creek skewed me. Nah. Don't know. Just felt "plasticky" or something. Hard to describe. Oh, and it was the weekend after the machine gun shoot so I tried to give the KC guy a little break for being worn out.

Oh, and I bought a M&P9 CORE 5" too. Shot it. Don't like it. It's now for sale in the store. So the grip was nice, but I've reconciled with my Glock. Kissed and made up. No more cheatin'. ...until the next little hottie hits SHOTShow 2016. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, baby.

[nyj]

On the other hand, carrying anything with NO round in the chamber is a lot more dangerous.

Don't want to take this off topic, but this is a mouth full of wisdom yet some still just don't understand how dangerous it is to carry with an empty chamber thinking they can see the threat, draw, chamber a round, point, and then shoot.

I do a demonstration with many of my customers who are new to guns. I hand them a red ASP training gun. I say, "Okay. Now, put this where you'd carry your gun. Pretend like it's under your shirt or in your purse. When I say, "bad guy! bad guy!" I want you to shoot the threat."

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM draw the gun and just go "bang". Then I take the gun out of their hand and say, "see, it's not instinctive to disengage the safety and especially not to rack the slide." "Unless you are planning on training 1000 rounds a month and on every draw, dropping the safety and charging the weapon, you need to consider a revolver or a striker fired gun with no external safety." "Instinct is to point and shoot. If you don't train otherwise, you need a weapon that fits your instinct."

Their faces look blank for a few seconds while it sinks in and then the light bulb comes on. Every one of them say, "ya. that makes sense."

As such, I have very few handguns guns in my store that have a thumb safety (except my personal Sig 1911 Scorpion used to show off my Osprey suppressor). Revolvers and striker fired, no external safeties are what I like to promote.

Well good for you.

Very little practice of drawing and disengaging a thumb safety yields muscle memory. Why we're even talking about this in this thread, I don't know. But here we are. Most of us willing to take on the task of carrying a 1911 are fully capable of operating them. I will agree that I never recommend guns with a thumb safety to new shooters, even though they tend to flock to them due to their own insecurities about handling a gun. Like said, the majority of these type of people don't practice building muscle memory. These are also the type of people to leave a Glock unchambered.

[Excaliber]

@OlBill - good point about repetitions. You could do 1000 "manipulations" in your living room. But, my point to them was that most people simply aren't going to even do that. They're going to get their CHL, buy a gun, and then shoot it twice a year maybe. They should practice, but most won't. It's like me and my gym membership. Pay every month. Haven't been in over 6 months though. And it's practically across the street from my house. I did do a few pushups in my living room the other day. Then my dog licked me in my face so I quit and played with the dog. Most people won't train so I recommend a gun that comes most naturally. "Point and shoot". And maybe even consider a laser. I hate for them to get dependent on it, and I don't have one on my carry gun, but for people who simply won't ever train but want to feel safer because they carry... that's how I'm thinking about it. And when they ask about me not having a laser, I tell them I'd be happy to sell them the amount of ammo I shoot each month (in a nice way).

@Taypo - OT, how do you like that VP9? I really thought I wanted one because I liked the grip concept. I carry a glock and didn't like the grip. Thought about M&P followed by XDM and then I saw the VP9. Drool. Then I held one (at Knob Creek, no less, while on vacation crossing the country). Didn't care for the feel for some reason. HKs are great (so I hear) but I was really turned off by the feel. It felt, oddly enough, cheap and flimsy. Reminds me of wanting a Jeep Wrangler so bad until the one day I drove one and hated the feeling of nearly rolling over around curves. Cured my wants in one drive. Now I just put a Hogue grip sleeve on my G19 and feel much better. I'm sure it shoots well like an HK should.

The VP9 has three optional grip inserts for both sides of the grip, and three for the backstrap. With a little experimenting, I think just about anyone can come up with a superior ergonomic setup for their hands. You can use them in any combination (e.g., palm swell on one side and narrow on the other.)

It took me about an hour of fiddling around with different combinations, but I now have the most ergonomic double stack handgun in my collection. I still carry the 1911 more (it's hard to get more ergonomic than a single stack 1911), but when I need high capacity, the VP9 beats my "2 x 4" Glock every time. The trigger is also outstanding for a striker fired gun, and reliability is top notch (as you would expect from H&K). The gun is surprisingly light unloaded, but a full magazine restores the feel you're used to, and it meets your requirement for "draw and shoot". The engineering story behind it is impressive too - H&K didn't just rush this one out the door.

I'd suggest giving it another look after experimenting with the grip inserts.

[oohrah]

I see I've been dragged into this again.

1. I have nothing against striker fired pistols. My EDC is a Ruger LCP which is DAO with no safety, and I carry chambered. I'm comfortable with this, because the long strong pull reduces the odds of accidentally pulling the trigger. And yes, it is holstered with the trigger covered.

2. I have a lot of experience with the govt. 1911, and I know all the safeties. Mine is a match condition with a hair trigger, and when cocked and chambered, the only safety when I grip it, is the thumb safety. IMO, it's not unusual for that to get tripped inadvertently (again, MO). so I'm just not comfortable with it for EDC.

Bottom line, somebody said it. If you train with it, and are comfortable with it, go ahead. I've made my choice.