Improper signs and results

[goose]

As of January 1, ignoring a properly posted 30.06 or 30.07 sign is a Class C misdemeanor, assuming you leave immediately if you're notified to do so:

30.06/30.07 (d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

Texas Penal Code states that a Class C misdemeanor (same classification as traffic tickets) is punishable only by a fine:

12.03 (c) Conviction of a Class C misdemeanor does not impose any legal disability or disadvantage.

12.23. CLASS C MISDEMEANOR. An individual adjudged guilty of a Class C misdemeanor shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $500. (30.06/30.07 limit this to $200.)

Unless it's a repeated offense:

12.43 (c) If it is shown on the trial of an offense punishable as a Class C misdemeanor under Section 42.01 or 49.02 that the defendant has been before convicted under either of those sections three times or three times for any combination of those offenses and each prior offense was committed in the 24 months preceding the date of commission of the instant offense, the defendant shall be punished by:
(1) a fine not to exceed $2,000;
(2) confinement in jail for a term not to exceed 180 days; or
(3) both such fine and confinement.

But then there is this possible "gotcha":

12.01 (c) This chapter does not deprive a court of authority conferred by law to forfeit property, dissolve a corporation, suspend or cancel a license or permit, ...

No details are included about what "license" might be impacted, so I guess it's theoretically possible you could loose your LTC, but I guess the same chances would apply to losing your LTC and/or driver's license for speeding.

As noted by other posts, there is no legal penalty for ignoring a non-compliant 30.06/30.07 sign. Just know what the possible consequences are if discovered, especially if it's "close." You could end up arguing the finer points of "contrasting colors" with a LEO and/or judge. However, even with that, jail time would not be likely, just a fine. Personally, I ignore them.

As for the red-circle "gun-busters" signs, those are directed only at criminals.

A much more comprehensive post. Thank you!

[ScottDLS]

...

12.23. CLASS C MISDEMEANOR. An individual adjudged guilty of a Class C misdemeanor shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $500. (30.06/30.07 limit this to $200.)
...

But then there is this possible "gotcha":

12.01 (c) This chapter does not deprive a court of authority conferred by law to forfeit property, dissolve a corporation, suspend or cancel a license or permit, ...
No details are included about what "license" might be impacted, so I guess it's theoretically possible you could loose your LTC, but I guess the same chances would apply to losing your LTC and/or driver's license for speeding.

As noted by other posts, there is no legal penalty for ignoring a non-compliant 30.06/30.07 sign. Just know what the possible consequences are if discovered, especially if it's "close." You could end up arguing the finer points of "contrasting colors" with a LEO and/or judge. However, even with that, jail time would not be likely, just a fine. Personally, I ignore them.

...

I read this to mean that the court must have been granted LEGAL AUTHORITY to suspend that particular license and I don't see that authority in GC 411. However, I suppose anything is possible, if not probable.

[TexasRifleman]

Which is precisely why the Legislature dropped it to a Class C, max $200 fine. Gun owners were playing fair, businesses were not.

What are they doing that is unfair?

Granted, it might be embarrassing for some to get to have a police officer ask them to leave a business in public. The laws of Texas will likely never require every business in the state (with a store front) to expressly declare their position on Open Carry on their doors. "You can only post a valid 30.06 and/or 30.07 sign and or valid TABC sign. Any other signage involving firearms will result in penalties." Not going to happen, IMO. Without that mandate, a business can put just about anything they want on their doors, gunbuster or otherwise.

As pointed out, there are requirements for the signs. Many businesses have not been following that requirement 100%, and gun owners have been afraid of signs that might be totally incorrect because the penalty was so high.

The Legislature has said, in my opinion, "the sign requirements matter and if the sign doesn't meet the requirements feel free to ignore it, and we're dropping the penalty to nearly nothing so you don't have to be afraid even though it wasn't a crime to begin with".

So, signs on notebook paper that have tiny letters, signs behind doors, signs that for whatever reason just don't cut it can be ignored. That was the law all along people were just afraid to push back.

Sure, for .07 there's no point because you're likely to get a verbal notice anyway, but for concealed carry it does matter a great deal.

[K5GU]

Question. If I'm open carrying and I enter an area that is posted with a sign (compliant or non-compliant) that I didn't see, and a customer informs me that what I'm doing is prohibited there, I then leave immediately, have I committed an offense?

[TexasRifleman]

Question. If I'm open carrying and I enter an area that is posted with a sign (compliant or non-compliant) that I didn't see, and a customer informs me that what I'm doing is prohibited there, I then leave immediately, have I committed an offense?

Customers cannot ask you to leave. If a customer asks you to leave just smile at them.

Only someone with authority, or apparent authority to speak for that business can ask you to leave. Even then if you comply there is only a possibility of a Class C and I'd expect that to be rare. Most businesses wouldn't call the police if you complied with a verbal warning because you didn't see the sign, or it was the wrong sign, though anything is possible.

06 and 07:

"For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication."

and

(d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

[K5GU]

Question. If I'm open carrying and I enter an area that is posted with a sign (compliant or non-compliant) that I didn't see, and a customer informs me that what I'm doing is prohibited there, I then leave immediately, have I committed an offense?

Customers cannot ask you to leave. If a customer asks you to leave just smile at them.

Only someone with authority, or apparent authority to speak for that business can ask you to leave. Even then if you comply there is only a possibility of a Class C and I'd expect that to be rare. Most businesses wouldn't call the police if you complied with a verbal, though anything is possible.

06 and 07:

"For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication."

and

(d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.

In this scenario the customer didn't ask me to leave, but made me aware it was prohibited, so I left the area.

[TexasRifleman]

In this scenario the customer didn't ask me to leave, but made me aware it was prohibited.

If you are sure the customer is right, and you decide to leave, then certainly there is no offense. I mean, if it really is prohibited and you went in anyway it's a crime but if no one calls the police and you fix the problem, there's nothing to it.

Personally I'd check for myself though before trusting some random person. And if it was a .07 I'd probably just cover up, not leave.

[K5GU]

In this scenario the customer didn't ask me to leave, but made me aware it was prohibited.

If you are sure the customer is right, and you decide to leave, then certainly there is no offense.

Personally I'd check for myself though before trusting some random person. And if it was a .07 I'd probably just cover up, not leave.

One reason I'm curious about this is because many store entrances have signs and decals plastered all over the front doors and windows, and it can be easy to miss some of them.

[TexasRifleman]

In this scenario the customer didn't ask me to leave, but made me aware it was prohibited.

If you are sure the customer is right, and you decide to leave, then certainly there is no offense.

Personally I'd check for myself though before trusting some random person. And if it was a .07 I'd probably just cover up, not leave.

One reason I'm curious about this is because many store entrances have signs and decals plastered all over the front doors and windows, and it can be easy to miss some of them.

And that's why the Legislature dropped the penalty to nearly nothing. It's very easy to miss a sign, have it covered up with something etc.

The law now allows for an "oops" without serious risk.

[bear94]

I'll go ahead and comply with an improper 30.07 but never for an improper 30.06 sign. Property owners have more power with open carry since them just asking you to leave regardless of any signs has the power of the law which brings up the question, what is the point of even posting 30.07 if them asking you to leave has the full weight of the law? One thing I think we should focus on next session is decriminalizing any 30.06/07 sign unless verbally told by someone in charge to leave. That's how other states have it set up.

[K5GU]

In this scenario the customer didn't ask me to leave, but made me aware it was prohibited.

If you are sure the customer is right, and you decide to leave, then certainly there is no offense.

Personally I'd check for myself though before trusting some random person. And if it was a .07 I'd probably just cover up, not leave.

One reason I'm curious about this is because many store entrances have signs and decals plastered all over the front doors and windows, and it can be easy to miss some of them.

And that's why the Legislature dropped the penalty to nearly nothing. It's very easy to miss a sign, have it covered up with something etc.

The law now allows for an "oops" without serious risk.

So even if it's an 'oops' and someone files a class c misdemeanor complaint against me, the fine might only be $200 but the costs of expungement might push the costs up much higher, eh?

[winters]

If you are like me and they ask you to leave. Remember to politely remind them you will never spend money with their company ever again. Some care some don't.

Its like the whole HEB thing they have shown they don't care about getting gun owners business so I will comply with their wishes.

[TexasRifleman]

So even if it's an 'oops' and someone files a class c misdemeanor complaint against me, the fine might only be $200 but the costs of expungement might push the costs up much higher, eh?

I don't know why anyone would go through that much trouble for a Class C but I suppose so.

Class C misdemeanors do not show up on criminal background checks for most normal circumstances.

[The Annoyed Man]

Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given

Because "intent" does not have force of law, and with concealed carry and 30.06, an invalid sign was easy to walk past. I've done it a lot of times myself. I always figured that if the business owner did not care enough to post a valid sign, I didn't care enough to pay attention to it. And if in the very unlikely event that my concealed status was revealed, I would happily leave upon receiving effective notice and go spend my $$ elsewhere.

But open carry and 30.07 are a different proposition. Sure, you can open carry past an invalid sign, but it is almost certain that you'll be quickly spotted and given effective verbal notice and forced to leave........whereas if you have been carrying concealed, it would have never been a problem.

My church posted invalid 30.07 signs last week, which I knew were going to be posted, but only saw for the first time yesterday. The church has been very friendly to concealed carry all along, and remains so even now, but the leadership's concern is that open carrying in the church might scare off newcomers, and our goal is to be as welcoming as we can. I have heard current members say that if OC isn't banned at our church, they will quit the congregation and go find another church..........not exactly a positive result. What a lot of people seem to lose sight of is that God's mission and purpose is bigger than our rights and purposes......even if they are God-given or God-directed.

I am glad the open carry law passed; but I obeyed the invalid 30.07 signs at church yesterday for several reasons:

1. I agree with the church's desire to be welcoming to ALL people, including those that are freaked out by an open display of firearms;
2. It does not affect my right to carry at church, since I personally prefer concealed carry for myself; and
3. As a member of the worship team, I spend a lot of time on stage and I don't want my openly carried handgun to be a distraction to worshippers, who ought to be focused on Christ and not on my gun or me.

My church has a security team made up of off-duty LEOs who carry concealed and wear specific blue polo shirts identifying them as part of the security team. (We also have a medical response team made up of Drs, RNs, and EMS people, wearing specific red polo shirts identifying them as medical first responders.) Members from both teams are at each service. I am friends with a number of them, including an LEO I spoke with yesterday who told me that the signs were not compliant (I hadn't seen them yet). But he also said that the leadership was aware that they are not compliant and will be rectifying that. Pending the new signs being put up, if a security person spots an open carrier inside the building, he/she will be given effective verbal notice that we do not allow open carry, invite them to cover the gun up and stay, or to please secure it in their car and come back in......but they can't stay with it in the open. AFTER the new valid signs go up, staff has been instructed to simply call the police when they see someone open carry past the compliant signs, because it is assumed at that point that the person is a law-breaker.......with or without a license......and that is the proper province of law enforcement to deal with.

I agree that walking past an improperly formatted 30.07 sign while open-carrying is just begging for trouble, and it probably invites more criticism of licensed carry while being a bad ambassador for lawful carrying of a handgun...........BUT, it isn't against the law. Lots of things are not against the law..... being drunk in your own home, trying to pet the lions in Africa, unprotected sex with a one-night-hookup you met in a bar, skinny-dipping in the middle of a school of jellyfish, mixing beer in large volumes with your legally-prescribed opioid pain-killers...... and about a million other combinations I can think of that are not illegal...... but the one thing they all have in common is a profound lack of wisdom.

Walking past an invalid 30.07 sign while open-carrying is not illegal, but it is as profoundly unwise as any of those other things. One of the things we have an excess of in the gun world is pride. I am not talking about justifiable pride in one's accomplishments or skills, or in the quality of one's children or spouse. I am talking about the pig-headed kind that doesn't know when discretion is the better part of valor - the kind of pride that shoots itself in the foot. Repeatedly. The kind of pride that blinds one to wisdom. Wisdom cannot exist in an absence of humility, and humility cannot exist in the presence of that pig-headed kind of pride.

In another thread HERE, we have a forum member who OC'd past an invalid 30.07 sign, had the cops called on him, was given effective verbal notice by the police, left, and threatened to go back in a few days and repeat his performance, despite having received effective notice. Further down in the thread, with an inflated sense of self-righteousness, he gave us all an "I'll show YOU" performance and threatened to YouTube his violation of having received effective notice. It was kind of a "hey, ya'll, watch this" sort of moment - in which any sentient being has to be thinking "THIS isn't going to turn out well", but feels compelled to watch the train wreck happen. And this from a fellow that in most of his previous posts was STRONGLY anti-open carry. One can't help but wonder it isn't his deliberate goal to sabotage open carry with his antics. He couldn't have planned it any better if it were.

As Charles Cotton reminded us in another thread, I hope that all who choose to open carry remember that they are - whether or not they want to - acting as ambassadors for the 2nd Amendment. The future of gun rights depends on it. When people forget that, or refuse to accept the mantle, they are acting against the best interests of furthering 2nd Amendment rights. Like it or not, our public behavior is what will color everyone else's perceptions of the gun-rights community, AND whether or not they will cooperate with further expansions of our rights.

There is no room for doltish behavior in that arena. I will repeat for the umpty-umpth time that I favor the right to open carry, even if I choose not to practice it myself most of the time. It cheeses me off when doltish behavior by a few tarnishes the reputation of the rest of us, and when that doltish behavior threatens to snuff out open carry while it is still in its infancy in Texas.

Good gracious......... it is NOT that hard to understand.

[TexasRifleman]

Well some good news is that there are already discussions being had about decriminalizing 30.06 completely (like Oklahoma) next session so maybe it won't matter at all before long for concealed carry at least.