Ridgemar Mall Signs

[David W]

I frequent Ridgemar Mall in Fort Worth and almost always enter through Macy’s. Today was my first visit since the 30.07 change and as with all entrances I go through, I looked for a 30.06/07 sign and as with all my other trips to this mall, there was none there. I left Macys and entered the mall, did my business and left the mall the same way I had entered. As I drove pass a main mall entrance I saw a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. Basically I had broken the law and not even known it. I called the mall assistant manager and explained what had happened and that there was not any signage at Macy’s entrance. He was very polite and I could tell he did not necessarily agree with the new restrictions at the mall. He explained the stores do not have to follow the same gun control rules as the mall. I said if that’s the case, there were no signs as I left Macy’s and entered the mall. He then explained that it was extremely difficult to post signs at the stores exits into the mall and the best they could do was post signs on the doors leading to the corridors behind the mall stores to the left or right of the large store doors. He told me that the changes had come from corporate and he’d pass my concerns up. I went back (without my gun) to try and find the signs outside the interior door of Macy’s. It took me to actually search for the signs, if you don’t look to either side of you as you walk out of the store you will miss it. Also, my first thought was, since there was not a sign at the outside entrance to Macy’s that the sign posted on the corridor doors indicated to me that the restriction were for the corridors behind the doors the signs were attached to. It’s a mess.

[Keith B]

Welcome to the forum.

Until you saw the signs you had not been given legal notice, so you were not breaking the law, even though the mall is posted at other entrances. Once you saw the signs, then you would have been breaking the law when you went back into the mall if you were armed.

[Solaris]

Welcome to the forum.

Until you saw the signs you had not been given legal notice, so you were not breaking the law, even though the mall is posted at other entrances. Once you saw the signs, then you would have been breaking the law when you went back into the mall if you were armed.

You do not have to see/read the sign to be given legal notice, though I am sure the "I did not see the sign" defense will continue to be tried. If it is properly posted notice has been given. 30.06 & 30.07 have different posting requirements. 30.07 sign has to be posted in a "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property", 30.06 does not even have to be posted at a single entrance, just has to be "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public".

These two different requirements are going to cause grief for some unlucky folks.

[jt88]

Haven't been to Ridgemar in a long time, but this is a good reason to avoid it. North East Mall in Hurst is not posted, and I hear that the signs at Grapevine Mills are gone now too.

[Keith B]

I guess I should have been clearer. Yes, the statute says a person has received notice if the sign is posted, but until you have seen the sign how can you know? So, yes, you may have legally been given notice, but I can't see someone who finds out about the sign not leaving when informed about it. And if properly concealed they shouldn't know you are carrying. And, now it is a Class C unless you refuse to leave when told. So, at most you would be fighting a fine if you get found and they charge you.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Welcome to the forum.

Until you saw the signs you had not been given legal notice, so you were not breaking the law, even though the mall is posted at other entrances. Once you saw the signs, then you would have been breaking the law when you went back into the mall if you were armed.

You do not have to see/read the sign to be given legal notice, though I am sure the "I did not see the sign" defense will continue to be tried. If it is properly posted notice has been given. 30.06 & 30.07 have different posting requirements. 30.07 sign has to be posted in a "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property", 30.06 does not even have to be posted at a single entrance, just has to be "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public".

These two different requirements are going to cause grief for some unlucky folks.

Posting a 30.06 sign anywhere other than at the entrance of the building is not going to work. First, TPC §30.06 only applies to a person carrying under the authority of their handgun license. Since passage of the Motorist Protection Act in 2007, it is no longer necessary to have a license to have a handgun in your motor vehicle or one under your control. Therefore, 30.06 signs on parking lots are meaningless.

I cannot imagine a DA accepting charges for alleged violation of TPC §30.06 when there was no sign on the doors. By "conspicuous," we meant conspicuous to people entering the building. I know you will argue that the Code doesn't expressly state such and you would be correct. However, if that is not the interpretation, then what is the context and scope of the phrase "displayed in a conspicuous manner[?]" Conspicuous from what vantage point -- driving down the road or freeway, from across a multi-store parking lot, a mall parking lot?

If the sign is at the parking lot entrance or anywhere in the parking lot, it could be easily missed by a driver for any number of reasons. They could be watching traffic or pedestrians. The sign could be blocked by another vehicle.

Any property owner wanting to exclude concealed-carry better put the sign on the door.

Chas.

[Tracker]

Posting a 30.06 sign anywhere other than at the entrance of the building is not going to work. First, TPC §30.06 only applies to a person carrying under the authority of their handgun license. ....

Any property owner wanting to exclude concealed-carry better put the sign on the door.

Chas.

Applebee's have put them in their foyers: http://www.texas3006.com/getimage.php?id=335. They can't bee seen from the parking lot.

[Solaris]

Posting a 30.06 sign anywhere other than at the entrance of the building is not going to work. First, TPC §30.06 only applies to a person carrying under the authority of their handgun license. Since passage of the Motorist Protection Act in 2007, it is no longer necessary to have a license to have a handgun in your motor vehicle or one under your control. Therefore, 30.06 signs on parking lots are meaningless

It is not meaningless. 30.06 applies to property, and as a lot of events occur on property such as parking lots and grounds, and typically you get out of your car to participate, MPA does apply. Examples would include Auto parts swap meets, Cars and Coffee, Jeeps and Java, Show and Shines, BBQs, car wash fundraisers, flea markets, tailgate parties, goodwill dropoffs, etc. My wife works at a place that posts parking lots, I cannot carry at company BBQ held in parking lot for example.

I cannot imagine a DA accepting charges for alleged violation of TPC §30.06 when there was no sign on the doors.

I am not talking about no sign. I am talking about signs at just about every door but you know of exactly one door that is not posted and you use that and think the "I did not see the sign" defense will work.

[Solaris]

I guess I should have been clearer. Yes, the statute says a person has received notice if the sign is posted, but until you have seen the sign how can you know? So, yes, you may have legally been given notice, but I can't see someone who finds out about the sign not leaving when informed about it. And if properly concealed they shouldn't know you are carrying. And, now it is a Class C unless you refuse to leave when told. So, at most you would be fighting a fine if you get found and they charge you.

This is what is nice about the Class C change, folks who truly did not see the sign (like to OP), do not get the big hammer if caught.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Posting a 30.06 sign anywhere other than at the entrance of the building is not going to work. First, TPC §30.06 only applies to a person carrying under the authority of their handgun license. Since passage of the Motorist Protection Act in 2007, it is no longer necessary to have a license to have a handgun in your motor vehicle or one under your control. Therefore, 30.06 signs on parking lots are meaningless

It is not meaningless. 30.06 applies to property, and as a lot of events occur on property such as parking lots and grounds, and typically you get out of your car to participate, MPA does apply. Examples would include Auto parts swap meets, Cars and Coffee, Jeeps and Java, Show and Shines, BBQs, car wash fundraisers, flea markets, tailgate parties, goodwill dropoffs, etc. My wife works at a place that posts parking lots, I cannot carry at company BBQ held in parking lot for example.

Of course an event in a parking lot will be different in terms of whether a 30.06 sign will impact a licensee when they get out of the car. I'm talking about going into a mall that does not have the signs on the doors. I made that quite clear in my post.

Your statement about the difference between the wording in TPC §§30.06 and 30.07 is grossly overstated.

Chas.

[Solaris]

Your statement about the difference between the wording in TPC §§30.06 and 30.07 is grossly overstated.

Chas.

How so? The quotes come directly from the Penal Code. eta - And how come 06 & 07 have different posting requirements? I am sure there is a reason and would like to know?

30.06 - "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public"
30.07 - "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property"

[Solaris]

Another question

If 30.07 is NOT posted at each entrance to the property (but instead at each entrance to the building on the property), is it not valid? Yes I know you would probably get verbal 07 if you OC there, but from a legal enforcement point of view, does this matter?

It seems to me right now most places are putting there 07 signs at entrances to a building, not the property.

Sorry for all questions, but 07 is new territory.

thx

[doncb]

If 30.07 is NOT posted at each entrance to the property (but instead at each entrance to the building on the property), is it not valid? Yes I know you would probably get verbal 07 if you OC there, but from a legal enforcement point of view, does this matter? It seems to me right now most places are putting there 07 signs at entrances to a building, not the property.

Entrance to the building is where the .07 should be posted. "Entrance" doesn't mean it has to (or should) be posted at a parking lot entrance. A valid .06 / .07 sign at building entrance is effective notice. If the entrance to a parking lot isn't posted but the building entrance IS, to me you could walk around the parking lot all you want because the parking lot isn't posted, the building IS. It is way too easy to miss a sign posted at a parking lot entrance. Even posted next to a building entry is risky. I saw a 30.06 sign posted next to an entrance one time that was 90% covered by a bush.

Unless I'm wrong (and according to my wife I usually am):

Post at the parking lot entrance = No carry on the entire property (subject to MPA).

Post at the building entrance = No carry IN the building. Carry in the parking lot is OK.

Of course there are exceptions but absent those...

[Solaris]

Thanks I am always interested to hear other peoples take on these things.

The difference in wording really has me confused though as to what they intended it for. I did not see any mention of this when bill was working its way through the system.

Of course I have no plans to put up signs, so it is just a mental exercise to know why.