conceal carry at church fundraiser?

[dru]

Hey everyone,

So in the not-to-distant future, my church (catholic) is holding its annual picnic/festival/fundraiser. I am part of a church organization that helps out with the cooking of the food, arranging the entertainment etc. Now, this church is located in the diocese of Austin which doesn't have (as far as I know) a position on the 30.06 or 30.07 signs. Our church doesn't have those signs posted nor do we have anything that could be even remotely construed as a no-guns-allowed sign or policy. So I just get an email from the guy in charge of this group asking if I can help out. This year, in addition to chicken wings, pizza, and soft drinks, we are also going to be selling beer. He mentioned that because of this, I can't conceal carry at the event.


I wasn't sure that he was correct. Maybe he is just trying to prevent me from carrying (he and I both carry at church services and we're good friends so I don't think he's trying to intentionally mislead me)


My understanding was that unless the church has 30.06/07 signs posted or isn't deriving at least 50% of its revenue from the sale of alcohol, then I should be good to go. Can anyone chime in on whether my understanding is correct? He doesn't have the authority to make that decision either since he's just coordinating with some of the guys about who can help when (i.e. so he hasn't given me verbal notice - I think he was just passing along a friendly reminder).

[arthurgarzajr]

I'd say you're in the clear to carry. Just stay concealed. If TABC hasn't given them a 51% license notice, then you're perfectly fine. Also if your friend is not an authoritative person, I don't think him informing you of this law he thinks is correct is verbal notice.

[suthdj]

Oh can't carry, sorry can't help either.

[Pawpaw]

You'll have to check the liquor license posted at the event. That will be the ONLY determining factor.

If it says "gun sign = red", you can't carry.

If it says "gun sign = blue", you can.

[twomillenium]

You'll have to check the liquor license posted at the event. That will be the ONLY determining factor.

If it says "gun sign = red", you can't carry.

If it says "gun sign = blue", you can.

The Red sign will not be the a choice, the TBAC will say red sign or not and it is their sign and you must abide by their yeah or neah.
If the do post .07 or .06 signs then you can't. If they don't, I would recommend concealed carry. Open carry would detract from the venue for some and that is not what you want.

[Soccerdad1995]

You'll have to check the liquor license posted at the event. That will be the ONLY determining factor.

If it says "gun sign = red", you can't carry.

If it says "gun sign = blue", you can.

If it's a 51% sign, then you can't carry on the premises that are covered by that license.

[srothstein]

Unless the church already has a TABC license, which seems unlikely, they will be getting a temporary permit from TABC for the event days only. IN most cases, temporary permits are sent as 51% permits because most charities selling beer make most of their money from the beer. Not all, but most. It will depend on how much beer they expected to be sold when they asked TABC for the license, along with how much of everything else.

Be prepared to not carry based on that. But also, I would think you just received effective notice from the organizer and I would think the courts would say he had the apparent authority to give you that notice. That also sounds to me like a no carry location for you that weekend.

[ScottDLS]

Unless the church already has a TABC license, which seems unlikely, they will be getting a temporary permit from TABC for the event days only. IN most cases, temporary permits are sent as 51% permits because most charities selling beer make most of their money from the beer. Not all, but most. It will depend on how much beer they expected to be sold when they asked TABC for the license, along with how much of everything else.

Be prepared to not carry based on that. But also, I would think you just received effective notice from the organizer and I would think the courts would say he had the apparent authority to give you that notice. That also sounds to me like a no carry location for you that weekend.

Where is the beer going to be sold? When our local (Catholic) church has these type of functions, the food/beverages are typically cooked/served from booths or tents, not in the "chapel"/worship area or sacristy or other BUILDINGS. If the beer is sold & consumed outside, the 46.035 definition of premises would only be met be the "pouring area". Also if sold inside, the DEFENSE provided in 46.035 will be available unless the 51% signs are correctly posted.

[dru]

Unless the church already has a TABC license, which seems unlikely, they will be getting a temporary permit from TABC for the event days only. IN most cases, temporary permits are sent as 51% permits because most charities selling beer make most of their money from the beer. Not all, but most. It will depend on how much beer they expected to be sold when they asked TABC for the license, along with how much of everything else.

Be prepared to not carry based on that. But also, I would think you just received effective notice from the organizer and I would think the courts would say he had the apparent authority to give you that notice. That also sounds to me like a no carry location for you that weekend.

he isn't the organizer. He also isn't the bishop/pastor/deacon/anyone who can make any rule for the church. That's why it seems to me he doesn't have any apparent authority. Interesting to know about the temp license though. Thanks for the heads up on that

[dru]

Unless the church already has a TABC license, which seems unlikely, they will be getting a temporary permit from TABC for the event days only. IN most cases, temporary permits are sent as 51% permits because most charities selling beer make most of their money from the beer. Not all, but most. It will depend on how much beer they expected to be sold when they asked TABC for the license, along with how much of everything else.

Be prepared to not carry based on that. But also, I would think you just received effective notice from the organizer and I would think the courts would say he had the apparent authority to give you that notice. That also sounds to me like a no carry location for you that weekend.

Where is the beer going to be sold? When our local (Catholic) church has these type of functions, the food/beverages are typically cooked/served from booths or tents, not in the "chapel"/worship area or sacristy or other BUILDINGS. If the beer is sold & consumed outside, the 46.035 definition of premises would only be met be the "pouring area". Also if sold inside, the DEFENSE provided in 46.035 will be available unless the 51% signs are correctly posted.

Like your church, the beer and wings and sodas and all the other food will be served and consumed outside not in any building. So assuming there is a 51% sign, I would just have to stay essentially outside of the booth where the beer is being served and I should be G2G?


I would actually be surprised if more than half our money comes from alcohol sales since we serve a lot of families, lots of wings/sodas and even have a cover charge

[Soccerdad1995]

Unless the church already has a TABC license, which seems unlikely, they will be getting a temporary permit from TABC for the event days only. IN most cases, temporary permits are sent as 51% permits because most charities selling beer make most of their money from the beer. Not all, but most. It will depend on how much beer they expected to be sold when they asked TABC for the license, along with how much of everything else.

Be prepared to not carry based on that. But also, I would think you just received effective notice from the organizer and I would think the courts would say he had the apparent authority to give you that notice. That also sounds to me like a no carry location for you that weekend.

he isn't the organizer. He also isn't the bishop/pastor/deacon/anyone who can make any rule for the church. That's why it seems to me he doesn't have any apparent authority. Interesting to know about the temp license though. Thanks for the heads up on that

It sounds like you have as much authority as the person who told you "no guns". So if he has apparent authority to ban you from carrying, then you have apparent authority to give yourself an exemption.

[lildave40]

I am far from being a pro. But isnt being notified not to cc isnt that sufficient enough even though there is no signage? It sounds like the guy is making the rules up for the event.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Soccerdad1995]

I am far from being a pro. But isnt being notified not to cc isnt that sufficient enough even though there is no signage? It sounds like the guy is making the rules up for the event.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

It depends on who is doing the notifying. In this case, it sounds like just another church member and not someone in authority.

I can tell you not to carry in my nearest Wal Mart. Since I don't even work for Wal Mart, that statement has zero legal impact.

[srothstein]

I am far from being a pro. But isnt being notified not to cc isnt that sufficient enough even though there is no signage? It sounds like the guy is making the rules up for the event.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Soccerdad1995 is correct that it depends on who is doing the asking. When I first posted that the guy saying no guns appeared to have the authority, I was basing it on the statement in the OP that "the guy in charge" called him to ask for help. He has since clarified that the person was not the organizer of the event or an officer of the church in any way.

The law required that the notice be from a person with the apparent authority to act for the owner. One of the keys to this is the wording "apparent authority". This means that if a person appears to have that power, the law applies, whether he really does or not. The converse is also true in that if he does not appear to have that power, the law does not make it so.

Examples of this would be if the minister came up and identified himself as the head of the church. He would then have the apparent authority. If he was in jeans on a work party that day and did not identify himself so that you would know he was not just some day laborer, the law would not cover him.

This is why my first assumption would have made it binding on me (he was in charge) but the OP would not be bound because of his greater knowledge of the church and its management.

[dru]

When I first posted that the guy saying no guns appeared to have the authority, I was basing it on the statement in the OP that "the guy in charge" called him to ask for help. He has since clarified that the person was not the organizer of the event or an officer of the church in any way.

Yeah I could probably have phrased it better to start with. I'm part of a men's group at my church and one of the things we do is help out at various church functions. We're grilling hamburgers, frying chicken wings and fish, all that stuff. This guy is the "head" (if you can even call him that) of our men's group and he's helping coordinate what our group will do but he's not an officer of the church or in charge of the event in any way.


I appreciate your advice though - it was on me for poorly articulating the scenario in the first place