Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#16

Post by SewTexas »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I understand the desire to keep the feds out of guns laws, but we are many decades too late. National reciprocity won't open any doors for further federal control over states. We know how to protect the bill.

Chas.

I'm sorry, but I was once told that by Sen Cornyn. "We will protect the home business, it won't affect you at all". Now it's the home sewist jumping through the hoops and the Chinese manufacture doing nothing.
I simply don't believe that anything is "protected" in DC unless it doesn't happen.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#17

Post by TXBO »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
TXBO wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I can see a possible pro-gun argument for not supporting the bill........and that would be that federal involvement in firearms law is already too prevalent, and we either believe in states' rights, or we don't. In that light, isn't it possible that Rep. Burgess has a principled reason for not having cosponsored it? I don't know anything about the guy. How has he been on the 2nd Amanemdnet otherwise?
I'm a strong believer in state's rights but no stronger that I am a believer in personal rights. The 10th amendment clearly states:

"“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

The 2nd amendment reserves the right to keep and bear arms to "the people". Heller confirmed the individual right.
I understand, and I agree in principle, BUT....... Just how often is the Constitution being respected by the federal gov't these days? For instance (regardless of where you come down on the issue), the recent administration attempt to cow school districts into opening their bathrooms and locker rooms to any gender by threatening to withhold DOE funds if they don't comply is a CLEAR case of interference in states rights.......by a federal bureaucracy for which the Constitution makes no charter. And that example came right off the top of my head. Witness how often Congress has used the Commerce Clause to regulate national policy in ways that would have horrified the Founders.......i.e. Obamacare most recently...... And you know as well as I or anybody else knows that this bill will NOT clear Congress without amendments. Remember the Lautenberg Amendment? Or how about the Hughes amendment to FOPA? And THAT was with a republican president who had a republican senate majority. And now we are facing an presidential election between the two presumed nominees, one of whom has made it her goal to institute Australia-style gun control, and the other of whom is also left of center with a record of having favored draconian anti gun laws in the past.

So how is trusting the Constitution to the grubby paws of DC working out for you?

Yes, it would be a GREAT idea if all it did was force all states to recognize one another's carry licenses, just like they do drivers licenses and marriage licenses. But, I don't think the federal gov't can get involved without its insisting on implementing top down control. Why? Because it concerns guns.....the fed has NO problem forcing states to recognize a completely new marriage paradigm, but with guns, that's a whole 'nuther level. And if there is one thing that a statist politician fears more than anything is an armed (and angry) populace. And right now, people are REAL angry. And there's another issue....... It automatically negates constitutional carry nationally by recognizing that a guaranteed right may be restricted nationally - unlike driving and marriage which are not Constitutionally guaranteed rights. And in my opinion, neither the state nor the fed has any business regulating marriage - let alone issuing licenses for it. If people want to cohabit and have the state recognize it for tax purposes by registering their relationship as a civil union, that's fine; but marriage is a sacred commitment, and it belongs in the purview of religion......whatever religion one ascribes to.....and "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof". And the 1st Amendment is an incorporated right. So DL and ML are totally different issues than CL.

Mine may not be the popular opinion, and it may not suit everybody, but I believe it is the only one that protects the right to carry better than putting it at risk of top-down federal control.

Reasonable people of good will are free to disagree. This is just my opinion, and worth exactly what it costs.
I can't argue with much of what you state. However, we have spent decades fighting for the recognition of the Second Amendment as a fundamental individual right. Any suggestion that it is a state's right would be detrimental to the movement....And, in my opinion, just plain wrong.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#18

Post by TangoX-ray »

TXBO wrote:I can't argue with much of what you state. However, we have spent decades fighting for the recognition of the Second Amendment as a fundamental individual right. Any suggestion that it is a state's right would be detrimental to the movement....And, in my opinion, just plain wrong.
:iagree: The fundamental threat to the 2A is the Federal government, not the state governments (taken collectively). Most states have done a wonderful job as stewards of the right to bear arms.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#19

Post by The Annoyed Man »

TXBO wrote:I can't argue with much of what you state. However, we have spent decades fighting for the recognition of the Second Amendment as a fundamental individual right. Any suggestion that it is a state's right would be detrimental to the movement....And, in my opinion, just plain wrong.
I don't know that it should be a state's right (I'd be happier if it was all federal and the Constitution was followed to the letter), but I do know this: at this time in our history, the right is for the most part safer with the states than it has been with the feds. Yes, there are states that suppress it almost entirely, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. The ONLY way I can see going forward at the federal level would be if Congress were to pass legislation simply stating that:
  1. the 2nd Amendment says what it says, the courts have determined it to be an individual right, and therefore under the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution (Article VI, Clause 2), all laws regulating firearms at the state and local level are null and void,
  2. the 2nd Amendment says what it says, the courts have determined it to be an individual right, and therefore under the Bill of Rights, all federal gun control laws are null and void, and
  3. the 2nd Amendment says what it says, the courts have determined it to be an individual right, and therefore it shall be deemed unconstitutional and unlawful and treasonous to attempt to pass any further legislation controlling or restricting the right of citizens to keep and bear arms, and
  4. the 2nd Amendment says what it says, the courts have determined it to be an individual right, and therefore it shall be considered an impeachable offense for a sitting president to in any way circumvent, refuse to enforce, or fail to protect the 2nd Amendment via executive orders.
....and then have the sitting president sign it.

That's never going to happen, and we both know it. Name me ONE president, even a fairly conservative president, who would have signed away federal power like that. Ronald Reagan wouldn't have signed it. We can hope it will some day happen, but realistically it just isn't going to happen because there are too many other citizens who disagree that it is a right at all, let alone a right that cannot be infringed in any way. They are wrong, but they vote, and "elections have consequences", as Emperor Obama is fond of saying. It would take the election of a pretty committed Libertarian POTUS to sign such a bill.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but there it is, and I fear that trying to pass this national reciprocity legislation would bring forth a greater loss of the RKBA than it would save. We can certainly invest our hopes in what SHOULD be, but if we fail to take into account what IS when we do so, then we are doomed to nothing more than bewildered frustration; and THIS is exactly why it is that, despite the understandable desire for instant and massive change, from a tactical perspective, the preservation and advancement of firearm rights is best tackled piecemeal. A national reciprocity bill would be a fairly sweeping change, and I suspect it would be impossible to pass - let alone to get any of the rodeo clowns currently running to sign it into law - for the simple reason that it would burn up a TON of political capital, when there are more pressing issues..........like keeping Hillary Clinton from turning us into Australia.......
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#20

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

JALLEN wrote:Some bills are introduced for passing, some for constituent impressing.

This one seems to be in the latter category. It is languishing in Subcommittee going nowhere.
No, it is not to impress anyone. Many federal pro-gun bills must be filed in several sessions to get them passed. Obviously, if this one passes, Obama will veto the Bill, but passage will make it easier to either 1) pass it next session; or 2) add the Bill's language to other critical bills.

Chas.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#21

Post by ELB »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I understand the desire to keep the feds out of guns laws, but we are many decades too late. National reciprocity won't open any doors for further federal control over states. We know how to protect the bill.

Chas.
Yes, that horse left the barn long ago and the anti-gun forces have ridden it by themselves for far too long. We can take back the federal law requiring national reciprocity when we take back the NFA, national background checks, and lord knows how many non-firearm laws and regulations. Until then, make use of them.

The best way to get a bad law or bad policy reversed is to enforce it equally and vigorously. Notice how the Dems suddenly started babbling about federalism and local control when the Heller got decided. The fastest way to reduce the federal government's reach into everything, short of electing Ted Cruz as president and electing Tea Party supermajorities in both houses, is to turn federal power against Democratic hobby horses. Refusing to do so and claiming it as "prinicipal" is not noble, it's suicide at this stage of the game.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#22

Post by twomillenium »

A little voice in the back of my head says "Remember when health insurance was an individual right".
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#23

Post by JALLEN »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
JALLEN wrote:Some bills are introduced for passing, some for constituent impressing.

This one seems to be in the latter category. It is languishing in Subcommittee going nowhere.
No, it is not to impress anyone. Many federal pro-gun bills must be filed in several sessions to get them passed. Obviously, if this one passes, Obama will veto the Bill, but passage will make it easier to either 1) pass it next session; or 2) add the Bill's language to other critical bills.

Chas.
You may well have access to information I do not, but the fact that it has been referred to a subcommittee in March 2015 without action since impresses on me the conclusion that this bill was not seriously going to be considered or acted upon, and now with silly season in full swing, nothing will be done. The bill will die at session end, perhaps to be reintroduced in the next Congress, likely to await the same fate.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#24

Post by SewTexas »

twomillenium wrote:A little voice in the back of my head says "Remember when health insurance was an individual right".
good one!
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Gun control is what you talk about when you don't want to talk about the truth ~ Colion Noir

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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#25

Post by Solaris »

JALLEN wrote: You may well have access to information I do not, but the fact that it has been referred to a subcommittee in March 2015 without action since impresses on me the conclusion that this bill was not seriously going to be considered or acted upon, and now with silly season in full swing, nothing will be done. The bill will die at session end, perhaps to be reintroduced in the next Congress, likely to await the same fate.
Do nothing Republican Congress strikes again.

50 state LEOSA seems to be working well for LEOs.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#26

Post by ScottDLS »

Solaris wrote:
JALLEN wrote: You may well have access to information I do not, but the fact that it has been referred to a subcommittee in March 2015 without action since impresses on me the conclusion that this bill was not seriously going to be considered or acted upon, and now with silly season in full swing, nothing will be done. The bill will die at session end, perhaps to be reintroduced in the next Congress, likely to await the same fate.
Do nothing Republican Congress strikes again.

50 state LEOSA seems to be working well for LEOs.
LEOSA introduced by Nancy Pelosi and is also more Federal overreach.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#27

Post by Jusme »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
TXBO wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I can see a possible pro-gun argument for not supporting the bill........and that would be that federal involvement in firearms law is already too prevalent, and we either believe in states' rights, or we don't. In that light, isn't it possible that Rep. Burgess has a principled reason for not having cosponsored it? I don't know anything about the guy. How has he been on the 2nd Amanemdnet otherwise?
I'm a strong believer in state's rights but no stronger that I am a believer in personal rights. The 10th amendment clearly states:

"“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

The 2nd amendment reserves the right to keep and bear arms to "the people". Heller confirmed the individual right.
I understand, and I agree in principle, BUT....... Just how often is the Constitution being respected by the federal gov't these days? For instance (regardless of where you come down on the issue), the recent administration attempt to cow school districts into opening their bathrooms and locker rooms to any gender by threatening to withhold DOE funds if they don't comply is a CLEAR case of interference in states rights.......by a federal bureaucracy for which the Constitution makes no charter. And that example came right off the top of my head. Witness how often Congress has used the Commerce Clause to regulate national policy in ways that would have horrified the Founders.......i.e. Obamacare most recently...... And you know as well as I or anybody else knows that this bill will NOT clear Congress without amendments. Remember the Lautenberg Amendment? Or how about the Hughes amendment to FOPA? And THAT was with a republican president who had a republican senate majority. And now we are facing an presidential election between the two presumed nominees, one of whom has made it her goal to institute Australia-style gun control, and the other of whom is also left of center with a record of having favored draconian anti gun laws in the past.

So how is trusting the Constitution to the grubby paws of DC working out for you?

Yes, it would be a GREAT idea if all it did was force all states to recognize one another's carry licenses, just like they do drivers licenses and marriage licenses. But, I don't think the federal gov't can get involved without its insisting on implementing top down control. Why? Because it concerns guns.....the fed has NO problem forcing states to recognize a completely new marriage paradigm, but with guns, that's a whole 'nuther level. And if there is one thing that a statist politician fears more than anything is an armed (and angry) populace. And right now, people are REAL angry. And there's another issue....... It automatically negates constitutional carry nationally by recognizing that a guaranteed right may be restricted nationally - unlike driving and marriage which are not Constitutionally guaranteed rights. And in my opinion, neither the state nor the fed has any business regulating marriage - let alone issuing licenses for it. If people want to cohabit and have the state recognize it for tax purposes by registering their relationship as a civil union, that's fine; but marriage is a sacred commitment, and it belongs in the purview of religion......whatever religion one ascribes to.....and "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or preventing the free exercise thereof". And the 1st Amendment is an incorporated right. So DL and ML are totally different issues than CL.

Mine may not be the popular opinion, and it may not suit everybody, but I believe it is the only one that protects the right to carry better than putting it at risk of top-down federal control.

Reasonable people of good will are free to disagree. This is just my opinion, and worth exactly what it costs.
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I understand the desire to keep the feds out of guns laws, but we are many decades too late. National reciprocity won't open any doors for further federal control over states. We know how to protect the bill.

Chas.
Charles with all due respect, I understand that a bill to create a nationwide reciprocity law sounds good on it's face,
but I have to agree with TAM on this. No law ever creates freedom, only restriction. Either for the government, or the governed. Before a new law is passed for reciprocity, I would like to see the Federal government force states to abide by the Constitution, which restricts the Federal government from infringing on our rights. Since that won't happen any time soon, I would just as soon have the Federal government stay out of the entire issue. While the legislature and people such as yourself who help craft legislation, may be able to protect the bill from amendments on it's journey to become law, that law could be used to inflict future restrictions at the federal level. JMHO
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#28

Post by Glockster »

My primary concern would be that any Federal oversight or involvement tends to make it more "theirs" and less ours. From the thread, the example given regarding DLs and that it isn't a Federal law that makes the reciprocity....however, those same DLs must by Federal law conform to Federal standards regarding format, information, and access to that information within Federal databases OR you will find yourself at the airport with TSA refusing to allow clearance because you have a DL issued by one of those handful of states whose DLs still don't meet those standards. Firstly, that is an unfunded mandate imposed upon any state by the Federal government and that increases our financial burden upon the state (and we all know who pays for that). Secondly, it would seem to me that it is some form of infringement upon states rights in that IF TX decided tomorrow to go with some form of license not approved (e.g., a virtual document, or a biometric scan that links to your record, or a smart chip attached to your key fob), then either TX would be precluded from doing so or its licenses would no longer be valid for Federal ID purposes. My point is that it all starts small - but a drip of water erodes the large rock over time. I'm just saying.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#29

Post by Solaris »

ScottDLS wrote:
Solaris wrote:
JALLEN wrote: You may well have access to information I do not, but the fact that it has been referred to a subcommittee in March 2015 without action since impresses on me the conclusion that this bill was not seriously going to be considered or acted upon, and now with silly season in full swing, nothing will be done. The bill will die at session end, perhaps to be reintroduced in the next Congress, likely to await the same fate.
Do nothing Republican Congress strikes again.

50 state LEOSA seems to be working well for LEOs.
LEOSA introduced by Nancy Pelosi and is also more Federal overreach.
Pelosi introducing a pro-gun bill during a Republican controlled term - rofl. You can credit the Duke for this one.
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Re: Missing CoSponsor for H.R.923 - Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015

#30

Post by JALLEN »

Solaris wrote:
JALLEN wrote: You may well have access to information I do not, but the fact that it has been referred to a subcommittee in March 2015 without action since impresses on me the conclusion that this bill was not seriously going to be considered or acted upon, and now with silly season in full swing, nothing will be done. The bill will die at session end, perhaps to be reintroduced in the next Congress, likely to await the same fate.
Do nothing Republican Congress strikes again.

50 state LEOSA seems to be working well for LEOs.
Not exactly. There are 10-12,000 bills and resolutions introduced in each session of Congress. Typically 2-5% ever see the light of day.

This is probably for the best. As Calvin Coolidge said, "“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”

I have proposed bills on several occasions, none recently. It is easy to find a Congressman to introduce a bill, unless it is likely to be extremely controversial. It is a good way to curry favor with a constituent. Co sponsoring is the same, with less bother. Everyone realizes it will be referred to a committee along with hundreds of others, and unless it catches the eye of the leadership, nothing will happen.

It may happen that a bill has little support the first time, but the proponents work the room over a period of time, meet with legislators, form pressure groups, engage lobbyists, write letters, make phone calls, drum up support so that after being introduced repeatedly, an idea gains traction and is voted on.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
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