Thinking About Defense of Others

[SIGFan43]

Yesterday’s shooting in the Rolling Oaks Mall in San Antonio got me thinking. In that situation, two armed bad guys entered Kay’s Jewelry store to rob it. The store was posted with 30.06/30.07 signs, which forbids legally licensed customers to enter with a concealed or open carry handgun. After witnessing an unarmed Good Samaritan who intervened and was shot dead, a licensed civilian intervened, shooting one of the bad guys, according to news reports. This story started this line of thinking on my part:

My apartment complex leasing office/community room is posted with 30.06/30.07 signs, but carrying anywhere else outside that building IS allowed under my signed lease. The manager has told me that she has never even touched a gun, but is concerned that an angry tenant being evicted may react violently, an example she mentioned to me. She also has concerns that if an armed person gets in an argument in the community room with another person, and starts shooting, the business could be held liable if they didn’t have the signs posted. She told me that local police recommended the signs to protect the business. Suggesting to her that bad people with guns do not care about any signs did not change her point of view.

I walk outside several times daily when the weather is good, either in the street, or on the walking trail around the facility. I do this mainly for necessary exercise, but also am on alert for any trouble. I carry concealed, not open carry, everywhere on the premises, except in the posted building.

My quandry is this: If I’m walking near the building in question, and I hear gunfire within, I’m likely to stay outside and observe through a window, because I might not risk my life to protect the manager if she is being attacked. My logic is that I might be charged with trespassing if I intervene while carrying concealed, regardless of what is happening indoors. Is my thinking flawed?

Another line of thinking concerns the community room itself. There are bingo games, luncheons, etc., that take place in the building. Because of the posted signs and my lease, I no longer participate in these events. However, if I heard gunfire inside, and knew that my best friends were inside, I would probably attempt to protect them, regardless of the signs, after I call 9-1-1. I know the dispatcher would probably tell me not to go inside, but to wait on the police to come, but I am not willing to watch my friends get shot.

I am not aware of any other incidents that tell us what happens to the licensed gun owner who intervenes by going in a posted business. What are your thoughts? Would you intervene if your friends or family were not in danger, but others were?

[txglock21]

There are too many "what-if" situations to cover everything, so I will keep it short and sweet: I got my CHL/LTC to protect myself and my family. If my family is in danger, then yes, I'm going to anything and everything to protect them. Friends or people I don't know, unless I'm directly involved like I'm inside a 7-11 while being held up, then sorry, I'm not a hero or batman. I will be the best witness I can from a safe place. YMMV

[SIGFan43]

There are too many "what-if" situations to cover everything, so I will keep it short and sweet: I got my CHL/LTC to protect myself and my family. If my family is in danger, then yes, I'm going to anything and everything to protect them. Friends or people I don't know, unless I'm directly involved like I'm inside a 7-11 while being held up, then sorry, I'm not a hero or batman. I will be the best witness I can from a safe place. YMMV

I totally agree with your point of view. I would not have been that LTC guy who intervened in San Antonio; however, I don't have any family nearby, so all I have in this world are my best friends whom I love dearly, who would have no protection in a violent encounter. Like you, I am not a hero or Batman, either, but I probably would do exactly as you say...be the best witness I could be.

[BigGuy]

There are too many "what-if" situations to cover everything, so I will keep it short and sweet: I got my CHL/LTC to protect myself and my family. If my family is in danger, then yes, I'm going to anything and everything to protect them. Friends or people I don't know, unless I'm directly involved like I'm inside a 7-11 while being held up, then sorry, I'm not a hero or batman. I will be the best witness I can from a safe place. YMMV

They've got the same choice we have to arm and protect themselves. It will be unfortunate if their choices result in their deaths, but I don't intend to pay the price for their poor decisions. I'm sure every situation is different and I can dream up scenarios in which I would interview, but my base line is to protect me and mine, and be a good witness.

[flowrie]

There are too many "what-if" situations to cover everything, so I will keep it short and sweet: I got my CHL/LTC to protect myself and my family. If my family is in danger, then yes, I'm going to anything and everything to protect them. Friends or people I don't know, unless I'm directly involved like I'm inside a 7-11 while being held up, then sorry, I'm not a hero or batman. I will be the best witness I can from a safe place. YMMV

I generally agree. especially agree with any family involved. But, what if you see a child being abducted, or a woman being attacked in a parking lot, or a LEO needing help, etc..
I am not criticizing your statement.
I ponder the question to help or not to help. Wish decisions in life were easier, but they are not.
I suppose it just depends on the situation.
BTW, I give the LTC holder in the mall the benefit of the doubt, he saw one deadly action and was trying to stop any additional deadly actions. He had a tough choice to make.

[goose]

My quandry is this: If I’m walking near the building in question, and I hear gunfire within, I’m likely to stay outside and observe through a window, because I might not risk my life to protect the manager if she is being attacked. My logic is that I might be charged with trespassing if I intervene while carrying concealed, regardless of what is happening indoors. Is my thinking flawed?

There are a LOT of ways interventions in third party events can go south. Unless I was completely familiar with how a situation got to the point of gun play, I would be incredibly hesitant to intervene.

First of all, if all of the star align and everything was perfect and you ran into a building and saved someone from an attacker, in TX, I cannot ever imagine you being charged with trespass. Ever.

HOWEVER, and this is where it gets tricky, (as txglock21 said there are way too many what-ifs to cover everything)

What if the manager of the building you're walking by is an abusive lady, and her ex is expected to give her payments of some sort. In a poorly thought out situation he agrees to bring the money by her work. The video later shows that she brandished a weapon at him and he was protecting himself when he fired. The video also shows you coming in ten seconds later and putting some caps in the guy defending himself.

The classic case given in many LTC type classes is: You see a man with a gun standing over a woman in a parking lot. She is crying and screaming for him not to hurt her. You pull over and shoot him because he is about to kill her. And later find out that he had just taken the pistol from her in self defense and was fumbling for his phone to call 911.

I try not to say never because it is a big word, but I would very rarely interject shots fired into a situation I wasn't incredibly confident about how it started. The nuances of how it started can mean everything. That is not to say I won't interject myself. Admittedly I have only done this once for any event of magnitude, so I am no expert. However, if I were to interject myself it would most likely be with my phone and my ability to articulate the situation to a 911 operator.

I think that we all have the ability to be heroes, but very few of us have the ability to be batman. My tingly senses aren't good enough for me to infer who is for sure the "saint" and who is the "sinner."

[mr1337]

In my opinion, no jury in Texas is going to convict you for walking past a 30.06 sign to save someone's life who is under active attack. You should be covered under a defense of necessity.

Keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see it happening.

[SIGFan43]

I love this forum, because there is masterful insight on the part of this CHL/LTC community. I totally agree that any armed intervention on my part would not happen until I am absolutely sure that the guy with the gun is actually the bad guy and not the defender. I've read too many stories about the guy with the gun was actually the good one in the confrontation.

[Odiferous]

My logic is that I might be charged with trespassing if I intervene while carrying concealed, regardless of what is happening indoors.

IANAL, but my understanding is that LTC/30.06/30.07 all go out the door when you draw. You're no longer carrying; it's now about force and threat of force. The plastic doesn't give you any more or less rights than anyone else.

The first rule of concealed carry is, "keep it concealed."

As for the decision to act, we all have to make that based on the exact situation in play, the risk we're willing to accept, and the consequences we live with if we don't act.

[bblhd672]

It's a lot to think about. There's a million and one "what if" scenarios, very few of which are cut and dried as to what you could legally do.

Hopefully 99.9% of us LTC citizens will never be confronted with having to draw our firearm to defend our life or the life of another. However, as the saying goes "hope" isn't a plan. So we should think about what we would do, train for how to do it and constantly evaluate our thought and processes.

[Charles L. Cotton]

In my opinion, no jury in Texas is going to convict you for walking past a 30.06 sign to save someone's life who is under active attack. You should be covered under a defense of necessity.

Keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see it happening.

This attorney agrees with both of your points. I'll also add that I cannot imagine any LEO filing trespass charges under the OP's hypothetical, nor can I imagine a DA accepting charges.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I've already responded to the legal issues, but I want to add this as well. I give my "mall example" in all of my LTC classes. We talk about the natural instinct of many people to help those in danger and the risk this entails when you 1) don't know the people involved; and 2) didn't see the events from the beginning. I also point out that some circumstances are not the least bit vague where coming to the aid of another would create little if any potential legal problems. The physical threat presented will depend upon many factors, not the least of which is your skill at arms and the gun you are carrying.

Getting involved in the troubles of others is a personal decision. There are two things that would keep me awake at night and deprive me of many hours of sleep.

• 1. Taking a life unnecessarily; and
  2. Watching an innocent victim die because I didn't want to get involved.

Chas.

[puma guy]

In my opinion, no jury in Texas is going to convict you for walking past a 30.06 sign to save someone's life who is under active attack. You should be covered under a defense of necessity.

Keep in mind that I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see it happening.

This attorney agrees with both of your points. I'll also add that I cannot imagine any LEO filing trespass charges under the OP's hypothetical, nor can I imagine a DA accepting charges.

Chas.

I agree with you regarding the LEO's not filing a charge, but when it comes to DA's I think of people like Ronnie Earl and I wouldn't be so sure.

[EdnaBambrick]

This is probably selfish but I feel I have a responsibility to my family first. In order for me to get involved, I'd have to have every advantage possible before merely protecting property. By every advantage, I mean good cover, good back up (someone willing and capable of helping) and my weapon of choice (which is my typical carry but not always) and hopefully, such an advantage that no shots would be fired and no bystanders put at risk by anyone. Hopefully, a bright green laser on someone's forehead has that effect.

30 years ago, I chased down a 'thief' in Nice France that had stolen a stranger's purse (a fellow American), when I cornered the thief, he pulled out a knife, I used my bicycle as a shield and displayed my bike pump as a weapon. He dropped the purse and ran. The woman came up and she looked through her purse, the money and passport was gone. She didn't even say 'thanks'.

Later, it occurred to me, had it been a gun instead of a knife, the last thing I would have seen was the twilight skies of the Cote d'Azur fade to black.

None of the experience was worth it unless the lesson I learned was not to risk my life for stuff. Mine or someone else's stuff. - It's just stuff.

[oljames3]

As with most things in life, it comes down to which risks we are willing to manage and which benefits matter most. In the OP's initial hypothetical situation, I'd also consider which actions I can live with and which I cannot.