Thinking About Defense of Others

[bblhd672]

I have seen no factual reliable information that indicates the guy with the LTC did anything wrong, illegal or questionable.

The only person I've read saying the guy with the LTC was wrong is the mall's manager.

The mall's general manager, Dustin Christensen, said in a statement that the mall prohibits guns on the property.

"Although we respect the laws of the state and individual rights, we do, however, maintain a separate code of conduct that we visibly post at our entrances that includes the prohibition of any weapons on the property. Our top priority continues to be the safety of our shoppers as we strive to provide the best possible shopping experience for all,” said Christensen.

http://www.kens5.com/news/mall-policy-s ... /391647963

[bblhd672]

It is nice to be alive to raise your young men. To each his own. I am a 70 plus male not capable of putting up a marine type "fight". I am not LEO and I carry a .380 for personal protection for me and mine. I know that I have limited ability with such weapon and no additional rounds (6). Any self defense move with that limited capability has to be well planned. If I had to carry bigger or more rounds I run the risk of not carrying. Everything is a compromise. I don't carry to protect mall goers and people shopping in 30.06/30.07 zones. I carry to protect me and mine and even that is the bare minimum. Talk about resting in peace is cheap. I admit the reason I carry. Those that carry better or feel more secure go for it. I am glad the good samaritan shot one of the BG and didn't get hurt. Brave man. I am just saying why I carry and what I feel my obligation is. If one of the BG that was shot would have turned out to be LEO in pursuit or a mall goer had been accidentally shot by the good samaritan can you imagine how this story would have been reading. Do you think Kay's Jewelers cares that a customer was killed in their store? We all need to act with our training and my training is not adequate to handle a situation like this. Come at me or mine where I think our lives are in danger and than I will act. Probably not that good either but better than unarmed. Definitely better than hand to hand.

Well said. Carrying a self defense handgun for self defense purposes only is not a bad thing.

[jmra]

In response to the "I carry to protect mine not yours" point of view, in general I agree especially when it comes to property. However, I simply could not look my wife or teenaged sons in the face if I stood by and let someone extinguish an innocent life when my intervention could have prevented it, especially if the innocent life where that of a defenseless person.
I am raising two young men to be men of honor and valor. That requires that I serve as an example. I hope and pray that I am laid to rest as a very old man by my aged children, but if I were to lose my life tomorrow in defense of a helpless child I could Rest In Peace knowing that my boys are in excellent hands with a strong mother and knowledge that some things are worth dying for.

It is nice to be alive to raise your young men. To each his own. I am a 70 plus male not capable of putting up a marine type "fight". I am not LEO and I carry a .380 for personal protection for me and mine. I know that I have limited ability with such weapon and no additional rounds (6). Any self defense move with that limited capability has to be well planned. If I had to carry bigger or more rounds I run the risk of not carrying. Everything is a compromise. I don't carry to protect mall goers and people shopping in 30.06/30.07 zones. I carry to protect me and mine and even that is the bare minimum. Talk about resting in peace is cheap. I admit the reason I carry. Those that carry better or feel more secure go for it. I am glad the good samaritan shot one of the BG and didn't get hurt. Brave man. I am just saying why I carry and what I feel my obligation is. If one of the BG that was shot would have turned out to be LEO in pursuit or a mall goer had been accidentally shot by the good samaritan can you imagine how this story would have been reading. Do you think Kay's Jewelers cares that a customer was killed in their store? We all need to act with our training and my training is not adequate to handle a situation like this. Come at me or mine where I think our lives are in danger and than I will act. Probably not that good either but better than unarmed. Definitely better than hand to hand.

I understand. I did not intend my response to be directed at a specific individual but rather at a general thought process. I also understand that acting outside of ones abilities can cause more harm than good.
Now to the rest of your post. I don't play the "if" game. If I did I would never leave the house. What happened is what happened. No ifs about it. True probabilities of an "if" can be found in historical fact. If it is likely to happen it already has happened frequently. The "ifs" you propose are historically a statistical non-event as they simply aren't prevalent in Texas CHL history. If we only focus on the possible negative ramifications of our actions how can we ever achieve anything positive?

[mojo84]

I have seen no factual reliable information that indicates the guy with the LTC did anything wrong, illegal or questionable.

The only person I've read saying the guy with the LTC was wrong is the mall's manager.

The mall's general manager, Dustin Christensen, said in a statement that the mall prohibits guns on the property.

"Although we respect the laws of the state and individual rights, we do, however, maintain a separate code of conduct that we visibly post at our entrances that includes the prohibition of any weapons on the property. Our top priority continues to be the safety of our shoppers as we strive to provide the best possible shopping experience for all,” said Christensen.

http://www.kens5.com/news/mall-policy-s ... /391647963

I've seen several. Some on here.

[The Annoyed Man]

Yesterday’s shooting in the Rolling Oaks Mall in San Antonio got me thinking. In that situation, two armed bad guys entered Kay’s Jewelry store to rob it. The store was posted with 30.06/30.07 signs, which forbids legally licensed customers to enter with a concealed or open carry handgun. After witnessing an unarmed Good Samaritan who intervened and was shot dead, a licensed civilian intervened, shooting one of the bad guys, according to news reports.

Here's the problem...... what is the city of San Antonio going to do to the LTC who unlawfully carried his handgun past the Kay's 30.06/30.07 signs? Yeah, so he saved the day. Now he faces the possibility of charges for it. THIS is why I would not spend 10¢ inside a Kay's Jewelers. It has nothing to do with the quality of their products, and has everything to do with the fact that they wish to disarm people who have passed a background check that many of their customers cannot pass, all while admitting people many of whom may have an extensive criminal history. What results is exactly what happened in this story. Those idiotic signs did not prevent the armed robbers from entering the store now, did they?

Kay Jewelers can go hang.

Did he actually carry past the 30.06 sign? I assume the signs only apply once you actually enter Kay's since the mall itself is not posted. In the interviews the sheriff stated that the samaritans intervened when the BGs were leaving the store. I guess I assumed the LTC encounter was in the commons area of the mall outside of Kay's store perimeter. Is this incorrect?

I did not read the story and assumed that this happened inside Kay's. If it happened outside of Kay's, then Kay's did not get robbed. Someone else did......or at least the BG(s) attempted to rob someone else......and Kay's has nothing to do with the story.

Here's a link to an interview with the widow of the man murdered by the robbers inside Kay's. She paints a much different picture than what we have been told in other accounts.
http://www.ksat.com/news/rolling-oak-ma ... ooting-him

Well there you go....... THIS is why I choose to honor Kay Jewelers ridiculous sign postings, and give my money to someone who actually understands how the real world works.

[rotor]

Now to the rest of your post. I don't play the "if" game. If I did I would never leave the house. What happened is what happened. No ifs about it. True probabilities of an "if" can be found in historical fact. If it is likely to happen it already has happened frequently. The "ifs" you propose are historically a statistical non-event as they simply aren't prevalent in Texas CHL history. If we only focus on the possible negative ramifications of our actions how can we ever achieve anything positive?

We always play the "if game". Especially if we pull our guns and contemplate shooting. "is there an innocent bystander that might get hit?" etc. This case turned out OK for the good samaritan shooter and I am glad it did. The difference between you, an experienced driver and your kids driving the first time is that you play the "if game" and they haven't learned it yet. "What if that car in front stops fast?" We all play the "if game" but not always well, like the two robbers in this case. What "if we get caught" but that couldn't happen.

This is an interesting discussion, who knows but I might act differently with an adrenaline rush in the real situation. I have been in situations before where I put my life in danger pulling an unconscious man out of a truck leaking fuel everywhere. My wife nearly killed me doing that. But if I had time to think about what I would do I would be looking out for me and mine.

[bblhd672]

Well there you go....... THIS is why I choose to honor Kay Jewelers ridiculous sign postings, and give my money to someone who actually understands how the real world works.

Unfortunately, two years ago I bought my wife's wedding rings at Kay's Jewelry in Grand Prairie Outlet mall, before I even had any idea what a 30.06 sign meant. Now that I have LTC when she needs to take them to be cleaned and inspected I open the door for her and check out who is inside, then stand outside in a position to observe both doors and everyone coming and going around the area.

Frankly, if any jewelry store wants to ban the most law abiding citizens in Texas who are legally carrying a self defense handgun then each store should have armed security guards at all times to ensure the safety of it's customers.
How many innocent customers have to die because Kay's (Zales, etc) plays politically correct games to appease their corporate attorneys and leftist ideals?

[Abraham]

Lots of jewelers will do the services you need who don't require disarming...Look around, you'll find them...

[flowrie]

Lots of jewelers will do the services you need who don't require disarming...Look around, you'll find them...

That is correct! They are out there, just have to search.
The jeweler we use carries, if fact he has a BHP. While my wife shops, he and I talk firearms.
Helps to take some of the "sting" off when the bill arrives.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Yesterday’s shooting in the Rolling Oaks Mall in San Antonio got me thinking. In that situation, two armed bad guys entered Kay’s Jewelry store to rob it. The store was posted with 30.06/30.07 signs, which forbids legally licensed customers to enter with a concealed or open carry handgun. After witnessing an unarmed Good Samaritan who intervened and was shot dead, a licensed civilian intervened, shooting one of the bad guys, according to news reports.

Here's the problem...... what is the city of San Antonio going to do to the LTC who unlawfully carried his handgun past the Kay's 30.06/30.07 signs? Yeah, so he saved the day. Now he faces the possibility of charges for it. THIS is why I would not spend 10¢ inside a Kay's Jewelers. It has nothing to do with the quality of their products, and has everything to do with the fact that they wish to disarm people who have passed a background check that many of their customers cannot pass, all while admitting people many of whom may have an extensive criminal history. What results is exactly what happened in this story. Those idiotic signs did not prevent the armed robbers from entering the store now, did they?

Kay Jewelers can go hang.

Did he actually carry past the 30.06 sign? I assume the signs only apply once you actually enter Kay's since the mall itself is not posted. In the interviews the sheriff stated that the samaritans intervened when the BGs were leaving the store. I guess I assumed the LTC encounter was in the commons area of the mall outside of Kay's store perimeter. Is this incorrect?

I did not read the story and assumed that this happened inside Kay's. If it happened outside of Kay's, then Kay's did not get robbed. Someone else did......or at least the BG(s) attempted to rob someone else......and Kay's has nothing to do with the story.

Here's a link to an interview with the widow of the man murdered by the robbers inside Kay's. She paints a much different picture than what we have been told in other accounts.
http://www.ksat.com/news/rolling-oak-ma ... ooting-him

Yep, quite a bit different from earlier media reports that made it sound like the shooting didn't start until the LTC drew and engaged. Have I mentioned lately how much I despise the all-to-frequent false reports from the media?

Chas.

[Liberty]

Murphy was standing between her and one of the suspects. Jonathan tried to get in front of her.

"I think he was trying to stand in between to protect me, maybe protect the children. I don't know, I don't know what he was thinking. He didn't say anything and the guy just started shooting him," said Murphy.

There were children involved too. Doesn't sound like neither were the Samaritan nor the LTC holder were anything but prudent and heroic.

I only hope and pray that I will be as decisive and courageous as either one of these two men if I were ever to find myself in this position. Neither than man's wife nor the children were killed or hurt. Any wife worth having is certainly worth sacrificing oneself. We don't know how many lives the LTC holder saved, perhaps many, but that he only made the situation better is pretty certain.

[Mxrdad]

Murphy was standing between her and one of the suspects. Jonathan tried to get in front of her.

"I think he was trying to stand in between to protect me, maybe protect the children. I don't know, I don't know what he was thinking. He didn't say anything and the guy just started shooting him," said Murphy.

There were children involved too. Doesn't sound like neither were the Samaritan nor the LTC holder were anything but prudent and heroic.

I only hope and pray that I will be as decisive and courageous as either one of these two men if I were ever to find myself in this position. Neither than man's wife nor the children were killed or hurt. Any wife worth having is certainly worth sacrificing oneself. We don't know how many lives the LTC holder saved, perhaps many, but that he only made the situation better is pretty certain.

Amen Brother. Well said. I couldn't imagine a man not stepping in front of his wife to protect her. Not sure where the kids were but since the wife mentioned kids, I'm sure those kids were on his mind as well. A true Hero. Maybe they will set up a fund for the now Widow. I hope so and will certainly contribute. And just think, they were just getting rings cleaned. Get up, dressed, to the mall and come back a Widow.

[bblhd672]

Murphy was standing between her and one of the suspects. Jonathan tried to get in front of her.

"I think he was trying to stand in between to protect me, maybe protect the children. I don't know, I don't know what he was thinking. He didn't say anything and the guy just started shooting him," said Murphy.

There were children involved too. Doesn't sound like neither were the Samaritan nor the LTC holder were anything but prudent and heroic.

I only hope and pray that I will be as decisive and courageous as either one of these two men if I were ever to find myself in this position. Neither than man's wife nor the children were killed or hurt. Any wife worth having is certainly worth sacrificing oneself. We don't know how many lives the LTC holder saved, perhaps many, but that he only made the situation better is pretty certain.

Amen Brother. Well said. I couldn't imagine a man not stepping in front of his wife to protect her. Not sure where the kids were but since the wife mentioned kids, I'm sure those kids were on his mind as well. A true Hero. Maybe they will set up a fund for the now Widow. I hope so and will certainly contribute. And just think, they were just getting rings cleaned. Get up, dressed, to the mall and come back a Widow.

GoFundMe for victim's family https://www.gofundme.com/support-victim ... hys-family

[Mxrdad]

Thank You Sir.

[ninjabread]

My quandry is this: If I’m walking near the building in question, and I hear gunfire within, I’m likely to stay outside and observe through a window, because I might not risk my life to protect the manager if she is being attacked. My logic is that I might be charged with trespassing if I intervene while carrying concealed, regardless of what is happening indoors. Is my thinking flawed?

I wouldn't worry about being charged with trespassing if I entered after the incident started. Somebody already mentioned the necessity defense but even without that, the threat of a modest fine would not stop me from doing what I thought was morally right.

On the other hand, if the manager posted the signs, I would not come to their aid. I would respect their decision and let them suffer any consequences of that decision.