Wal Mart Weirdness

[KBCraig]

Several threads have touched on actual or hypothetical cases of store security trying to get grabby. This has prompted me to wonder whether any other Wal Marts work like our nearest Supercenter.

I've been known to get downright ugly with the "smiley face cops", the little old ladies who hand out smiley faces, but come chasing after you if the alarm goes off. It's not their fault, but I believe in making them aware that "it's just my job" doesn't justify trying to detain me when I haven't stolen anything.

Anyhoo, I've noticed that the Texarkana Wal Mart no longer tries to compare the items in your bags, to the ticket, nor try to find the offending piece of merchandise, make sure it's paid for, and make sure the anti-theft tag is deactivated. They don't bother looking at merchandise at all. Instead, they just want the receipt so they can log the receipt number in a book.

I suppose they can track which cashiers might be too careless when it comes to deactivating anti-theft tags. Other than that, I can't think of anything that's accomplished.

Has anyone else seen this procedure at Wal Mart or any other stores?

Kevin

[nuparadigm]

At the supercenter in Richmond, the greeters make no pretense of actually comparing the receipt list to what's in your bags. Neither do they write down the receipt #. All they do is, slavishly, mark the recepit with a marks-a-lot. If you're known to the greeter (and, apparently, of an acceptable ethnic background) they simply wave you through.

[MoJo]

No I haven't but, at the Vidor WalMart (not super) when the alarm goes off they just wave you on through with the statement "That silly thing messes up all the time - - - Have a nice day!"

[ghentry]

What exactly is supposed to be the purpose of the mark on your receipt? Like nuparadigm said, they don't actually compare the receipt to the contents of the bag. I just walk by and said "I paid for it" and keep on walking while people sit in yet another line just to leave with what they already paid for.

I got the same routine yesterday when I was leaving Fry's.

[HighVelocity]

I think they are just looking at the DATE on the receipt. If somebody is walking out with a full bag and a receipt dated yesterday then theirs obviously a problem.

I was in Target the other day with my son and when we walked out the alarm went off. I had purchased a few small items and had the bag w/receipt in my hand. (I suspect my phone was too close to the sensor), anyway, the security gaurd raced up to me like a man posessed but when we made eye contact and I held out the bag w/receipt he stopped dead in his tracks and said, "don't worry about it, you're ok".

I walked back out the door and the alarm didn't go off this time.

[stevie_d_64]

There seems to be a futility to the exercize in these cases...

And in most retail outlets like the one's mention do have non-confrontational policies in regards to potential shoplifters/thieves...

Which are in conflict with other certain customer service procedures designed to observe a "customer/potential shoplifter/thief", by engaging the "customer" to make sure they are being "watched/taken care of"...

So associates are encouraged to "profile", and if the situation escalates, disengage and notify management...etc etc blah blah blah...

Never mind that the most common form of loss to a retail store is just the blatant grab and dash...I've seem many Loss Prevention pictures of guys running out with those "multi-power tool" carry boxes right into a vehicle outside the door, and away they go...

No chance there for anyone to check reciepts, and "whats in the bags" in these cases...

I have learned not to bother stopping if the LP alarm goes off at the exit doors...If they want to talk to me about something, they can certainly do their best to catch up and strike up a conversation...I don't stop unless it is a commisioned law enforcement officer asking me to do so, at which point, you betcha I'll be more than happy to oblige "certain" requests...

I don't steal stuff in the first place...And if an alarm goes off, that doesn't tell me that "I" need to stop and wait to have my papers checked by a private entity...This is because somebody else screwed up, not me, and if they want to correct it...The burn is on them, not me...

I have better things to attend to...

I'm kinda in the same boat as "KBCraig" on this one...

This is one issue that has grown into a beast, I would like to see squashed into pulp...

Electronic devices are NOT judge, jury and executioner in my book...

And last time I looked...And its getting harder and harder to see everyday...You ARE innocent until proven guilty in a court of law...Not in a WalMart parking lot...

[txinvestigator]

Just be aware in Texas that if the theft alarm sounds the person has reasonable grounds to stop you. Case law has readily heald that.

[stevie_d_64]

Just be aware in Texas that if the theft alarm sounds the person has reasonable grounds to stop you. Case law has readily heald that.

Fair enough...And do what???

Actually I do know, and although I have stated my position above as far as why I do not think "I" should be assumed (as anyone else should be either) to be anything but a good customer and citizen...

I will not just "let it go" and be questioned and searched beyond any bags I may or may not be carrying out of a retail outlet...

"tx" I do understand what you are saying here...

I think we should take a look at the terminology here as well...

The "alarms" that sound off at the exits at retail stores have been mis-interpreted as "anti-theft" alarms, when they are installed and "maintained" as "inventory" regulating devices...

The spin on this is that it "could" be "assumed" that if the alarm does go off that it "could" be assumed that someone "may" be stealing something...Thats unfortunately how far its been pushed...

Remember, clandestine shoplifting is not the largest form of loss to a business...A large portion is the "blatant" grab and dash form of theft...

I know this, because for a short time, I helped compile the LP reports for a "Lowes" store I worked at a few years ago...

It was a very eye opening experience...

[txinvestigator]

There is no "could be" or "assumed" anything.

Both the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure and the Texas Civil Practices Act allow persons to detain a person and investigate ownership of property when they reasonably believe that a person has stoplen is attempting to steal property.



CHAPTER 124. PRIVILEGE TO INVESTIGATE
THEFT

(Selected Section)

§124.001. Detention.

A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is
attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a
reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership
of the property.


The courts have held that the electronic theft/inventory control systems activating are enough to have reasonable belief.

Texas Code of Criminal Procedure

Art. 18.16. Preventing consequences of theft.

Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft by
seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing it,
with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that person can
be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the
property and the person suspected of committing the theft to a peace
officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure under this article,
there must be reasonable ground to believe the property is stolen, and
the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay.

[GrillKing]

Just be aware in Texas that if the theft alarm sounds the person has reasonable grounds to stop you. Case law has readily heald that.

I have seen (actually heard) these things go off many, many times and even have set them off a few times myself. I have never once seen what appeared to be a theft. I know it happens, but the overwhelming majority have to be failure to deactivate the device at the register.

You would have a hard time convincing anyone of reasonable intelligence that just because the alarm went off, the person is probably a thief. The odds are overwhelmingly against it.

I for one, keep walking and have never been approached. If I were approached I would politely asked what the problem was and if it was suggested that I might have stolen something I would politely offer to wait for Law Enforcement to arrive and would offer to re-enter the building and stand in public near the entrance. I would not raise my voice, threaten in any way, try to run or otherwise leave. I would make it very clear that I will wait for LEO, but since I am 'cooperating', I will not be removed to a back room or otherwise physically handled or searched until LEO arrives. As long as there is no physical assault on me, I would not reveal my handgun. Even if there were a physical "escort" short of deadly force I would not reveal the weapon and would settle my case in the courts.

I believe that in the unlikely event you are stopped and questioned, offering to wait until LEO arrives will cause them to drop their qwest.

[KBCraig]

The law has "if you think you're man enough to try it" written all over it.

Nothing in the law that you've cited compels the suspect to comply with the orders of non-peace officers.

Major retailer LP staff are almost always in plain clothes. Such employees would be well-advised to be extremely careful if they attempt to seize property and/or a person.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

Major retailer LP staff are almost always in plain clothes. Such employees would be well-advised to be extremely careful if they attempt to seize property and/or a person.

Kevin

On that, we agree. ;)

[GrillKing]

My point is they have to all but accuse me or I'm still walking. If the say they suspect me of theft, fine, we wait for LEO, then he prove's I'm not, all in public and then we look at whether we can take 'em to the cleaners as a matter of principle. I'm not the litigating type and I don't know if there is a case if this ever happens, but if there was, I'd do it just because of the way this rubs me the wrong way.

This whole search my paid for merchandise at the door or the machine says you are a thief hits the wrong chord with me. I'm not a thief and there is nothing to suggest I am.

I asked once why they searched merchandise at the door and was told that it was to keep their checkout folks honest. May or may not be true, but if so, that's not my problem.

The family is always 10 steps behind when we leave some stores because they know that when the store staff asks if the can see my receipt, the answer will be 'no'.

[stevie_d_64]

Major retailer LP staff are almost always in plain clothes. Such employees would be well-advised to be extremely careful if they attempt to seize property and/or a person.

Kevin

On that, we agree. ;)

I think we are all pretty much on the same page...

But I have to wonder about this:

CHAPTER 124. PRIVILEGE TO INVESTIGATE
THEFT

(Selected Section)

§124.001. Detention.

A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is
attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a
reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership
of the property.

The definition of "privileged" is a bit different than "authorized" to detain...

"KBCraig" and I are probably thinking that we might not be as brutal as we appear to be, if the "approach" is made by LP personnel in a manner befitting a humble request to verify that a mistake was made on their part...If they approach in a manner that conveys "Halt you scum sucking thief", and they place a hand on you to "privilegely detain" you...

That in my opinion is "assault by contact"...The weeniest of assault charges...

Not that I ever would want that to happen to me or anyone...And all kidding aside, thats the truth...

Imagine this...

If you are deaf, and you do not see nor hear the "inventory control" alarm device, and head out of the store in your usual calm manner...

And an over-zealous LP person comes up behind you, yelling a screaming for you to HALT! and places a hand on your shoulder to stop you from leaving...

You being either a proficient martial artist, or a law-abiding CCW...And you are suddenly surprised by this "contact"???

Think of the tragic (possible) outcome of that incident???

I know the odds are slim of anything this drastic actually happening, and or if a deaf person would be qualified in some states to obtain a CCW permit...

Its just something to make you think a little about how far our society had gone down this slope we're tumbling rapidly...

[stevie_d_64]

Major retailer LP staff are almost always in plain clothes. Such employees would be well-advised to be extremely careful if they attempt to seize property and/or a person.

Kevin

On that, we agree. ;)

I'm really glad somebody else said this...

Most well trained LP personnel are "hands off" observers...

The ones that tackle and restrain people on hot pavement, are not long for the job...And a liability for the parent company...As we have seen in recent history...