2007 State Fair of Texas - Important CHL Update

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just got a call from my supervisor and we've now been told that the State Fair management has decided to allow CHL holders onto the premises. It seems like a lot of phone calls has caused them to change directions. CHL holders will need to notify security at the gates that they have a weapon and a State Fair representative will be called to the location to verify the CHL is in order.

An interesting point that came to light is that a lot of the vendors that operate at the fair have CHLs and they were extremely upset to find out that they might not be allowed in without their weapons. I'm sure that that might have had something to do with it too. Hopefully this will put an end to it but you never know.

I cannot thank you enough for bringing up this issue. Had the policy not changed, you would have avoided a good bit of trouble for a lot of people. I suspect a number of calls were generated here, so I think you are also responsible for getting the decision reversed.

Thanks again,
Chas.

Chas.

[KBCraig]

What about out-of-state Officers carrying under HR218 (for lack of a better term)

The better term is LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004). There have been three more "HR218s" since then, which undoubtedly had nothing to do with guns.

[cbr600]

If only Congress cared as much about the Safety of voters and taxpayers...

[jrosto]

Thanks for bringing this to out attention, and thanks to everyone who emailed or called the State Fair management team and helped them to reconsider this new policy.

[jimlongley]

Well, I guess my letter to the Dallas Morning News was wasted effort.

Actually, I almost hope they publish it, this morning's paper had a big article about the fair opening, across the fold, and the editorial page started off with "Let us talk you into a visit with Big Tex" and several reasons in the form of "Beef and reality" so I stated my beef and the reality that I would influence everyone I could to NOT attend the fair due to this unfair and discriminatory practice on the part of fair management.

[KBCraig]

CHL/LEO, you might want to modify your original post, so that someone late to the conversation doesn't have to read several pages in to find out that CHLs are once again okay to carry.

[CHL/LEO]

CHL/LEO, you might want to modify your original post, so that someone late to the conversation doesn't have to read several pages in to find out that CHLs are once again okay to carry.

Very good point - I will do that.

Something else I want to throw out for discussion - I had a conversation this morning with one of our officers (who is also a CHL holder) regarding the Fair. He brought up an interesting point regarding the Fair that none of us really had thought about before. This has to do with school events at the fair and how they impact CHL holders. Every year there are designated days during the Fair for certain school districts. The point he brought up was wondering if there are any conflicts in having these "school sponsored activity" days taking place and allowing CHL holders in.

46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or
prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section
that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a
concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

It was one of those, "Gee, I never thought of that before" type conversations. Don't worry, this is not a subject we're going to bring up with any one at the Fair or in our department, but I told him that I would run it up the flag pole on this forum and get some feedback.

[nitrogen]

I want to say someone told me the legislative intent of that passage was not to deny CHLers the right to carry anyplace schoolchildren might be. The intent was as a catch-all for any school sponsored activity, like sports, a pep rally, school play, etc, that might not take place on school grounds.

I realize it wouldn't take much for a powerhungry District Attorney to prosecute, but I have to wonder how something like this would be enforced.

I mean, a school field trip could be almost ANYWHERE. Even if a DA just used the mere presence of schoolchildren to try and convict an otherwise good shoot, you'd think that'd be career suicide for that DA, right?
Or so you'd hope.

[jimlongley]

I found the answer to my question. The State Fair is held on a 277 acre city park, so CHL's cannot legally be barred access with a handgun. Since TPC 30.06 doesn't apply to government-owned property, and since TPC 30.05 cannot be used to exclude a CHL based solely on the fact that the person has a handgun and a CHL, then there is no basis for an arrest. I hope DPD and the officers understand their exposure for making a blatantly illegal arrest.

CHL/LEO, thanks for posting this warning and please understand my comments aren't directed at you.

Also, the State Fair website still shows CHL's can bring guns. Here is a copy of the information on their website:

Can I bring...

...a wagon? Yes.
Small children may be pulled in a wagon.

...a bicycle, skateboard or roller skates? No.
The Fair draws large crowds. In the interest of overall safety for our guests, we ask that you do not bring skateboards, scooters, roller skates and other wheeled forms of transportation inside the gates (wagons to transport small children are approved).

...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

Here is a link: http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.html

Besides this latest fracas, which may or may not be settled, I have always wondered about their Cotton Bowl prohibition. Since the law is written in the present tense, should I assume, from their prohibition, that the Cotton Bowl has sporting events taking place 24/7 during the State Fair?

[Locke]

I was listening to KLIF here in Dallas on my way home. They had someone from the State Fair, basically just a commercial. I called in and said I was upset because I can't go to the fair this year as I have a CHL and want to carry. The host says he checked with the fair lady and that I can carry as this ban is an urban legend.

I started something because later someone else called in saying. I can't believe you are advocating taking guns to the fair. The host (JD Wells) is definitely pro CHL. He went into a long discourse on how we were all safer with CHLs around how 9-11 would have been different if the public had been armed on those planes.

I definitely think this board had something to do with management'c change of heart.

[Renegade]

46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or
prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section
that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a
concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

He is not the first to notice that. It applies to other places as well - museums, camps, etc. I can only handle so much debate at once though.

[Supercat]

I just finished drafting and sending a letter to My Favorite politician Rick Perry voicing concern over the situation.

Curious to hear his responce

[McKnife]

I'll be going to the State Fair in a week or two and will be carrying.

Has anyone been through the experience yet?

How did you get a State Fair Rep? Metal Detectors -- Sounds like it will be a bit embarrassing/time consuming.

What do y'all think?

[RCP]

Good to hear and this is part of what makes this forum so valuable. Question is what would have happened to CHL'ers who do not read this forum and had gone to the fair carrying if they had not lifted the ban? Sure would have made alot of people upset if they had checked the State Fairs website prior to going and then were turned away once they got there.

[stevie_d_64]

It seems like a lot of phone calls has caused them to change directions. CHL holders will need to notify security at the gates that they have a weapon and a State Fair representative will be called to the location to verify the CHL is in order.

No kidding!!!

What I'm wondering is if those who carry now are going to be publically drawn through a gauntlet of intrusive scrutiny during the admittance process???

As was discussed before, and maybe CHL/LEO could elaborate...Will the taking of names and other personal information of those CHL's who carry to the fair still be implemented???

This is another issue with the State Fair (and other venues) that needs to be addressed...That information is private, and we have a new law that keeps it that way...No private or government agency, law enforcement or not needs to tabulate this data...Law Enforcement as far as I understand is allowed to access and validate the CHL through an investigation that is privy to their eyes only...Not the State Fair personnel!!! Period!!!

I know they'll try this, and they need to be instructed that in the event the verification of a CHL is a Law Enforcement function, the confirmation should not even be given to State Fair personnel, not even a yes or no answer to them...

It never ceases to amaze me that all of this is totally un-necessary, and that everytime this happens nothing is ever done to keep it from happening again...

I am sure we'll here the stories this year about what will actually happen at this years Fair...

Thanks CHL/LEO for the heads up...I hope it all goes well for everyone concerned this year...

I'm sure we'll hear a lot about this tomorrow at PSC Day...