Would you "open carry"?

[carlson1]

You must be or have been an LEO. I would assume that most of the time you were OC'ing you were displaying a badge of some sort.

I was LEO, but never displayed a badge. You are not required to do so in Texas.

[frankie_the_yankee]

You must be or have been an LEO. I would assume that most of the time you were OC'ing you were displaying a badge of some sort.

I was LEO, but never displayed a badge. You are not required to do so in Texas.

Just curious. How often did other LEO's question your status? Was there some way they could tell you were an LEO? If not, it would seem weird to me that other LEO's would not initiate contact with you upon noticing that you were OC'ing, since it is illegal in TX for non-LEO's in most circumstances.

[carlson1]

You must be or have been an LEO. I would assume that most of the time you were OC'ing you were displaying a badge of some sort.

I was LEO, but never displayed a badge. You are not required to do so in Texas.

Just curious. How often did other LEO's question your status? Was there some way they could tell you were an LEO? If not, it would seem weird to me that other LEO's would not initiate contact with you upon noticing that you were OC'ing, since it is illegal in TX for non-LEO's in most circumstances.

Good question, but I never was stopped or questioned. The truth is in the smaller nows in Wood County I was known, but I was not know in Dallas, Austin, Etc. . . I think for the most part you do not expect to see Bad Guys walking around with guns in holsters on their belt. It has been my experience everyone I arrested never carried a gun in a holster always in their belt or pocket.

[flintknapper]

I OC at lunch every day, breakfast about once a week and normal activities in places like WalMart, 356 Fighter Squadron restaurant, walking around my apartment complex (Remington Station), IHOP, Cracker Barrel, AVIS car rental at the akron canton airport, Sheetz, Quiznos, Wendy's McDonalds, Burger King, various gas stations, Super Cuts for haircuts, my dentist's office (Dr. Benson), and more places I can't think of off the top of my head.

He plainly states that he OC’s “everyday� and he goes on to list the places at which he does so (mostly gas stations and fast food franchises).

I think you have assumed that he travels “city wide� and is ever on the look-out for others OCing.

Not really. I just assumed that he moved about as someone living a normal life. In the course of an entire year, if OC was at all common in Canton, he would certainly see more than ONE person doing it. Obviously, very few people OC in the Canton area.

A cursory search of the consensus bureau of
California will turn up a plethora of cities well over 10,000 in population all over the state.

The person you referred to happens to live in Shasta County (not in the boondocks):

Shasta County is a county located in the northern portion of the U.S. state of California, in the Cascade Mountains. As of 2000 the population was 163256.

I think he’s going to qualify.

Shasta County contains 3 cities, Redding (pop. 84000), Anderson (pop 9000), and Shasta Lake (pop 9000). If the guy lives or OC's frequently in Redding I would count him as an urban OC practicioner. If he lives and OC's in one of the two small towns or in an unincorporated area, I'd say he was in the boondocks.

Ask him how many other people he sees OC'ing, especially in Redding. My guess - very few or none.

and it has NEVER been argued that your concerns are “unheard of�. You wouldn’t even have to leave our own forum to find that.

The poll, however…. is being conducted to establish the fact that people DO in fact OC in urban areas among the public, and to determine if any of the respondents have had their gun “snatched�.

Any hyperbole I may have employed aside, I've never argued that absolutely no one OC's in urban areas. Just that it is a rare occurrance. So far, I haven't seen any data refuting that. Again, the guy in Canton has only seen one other guy OC'ing in a year's time.

That's rare.

And when I am dismissed as "an idiot" or "stupid", I interpret that as coming from people who feel that my concerns are, if not unheard of, simply meaningless.

(referring to my "puckered up like a frightened turtle" formulation) Well, we’ve all written something that we thought was “pretty good� at the time.

Hey, I still think it is a good line. Feel free to use it yourself any time you want.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Not really. I just assumed that he moved about as someone living a normal life. In the course of an entire year, if OC was at all common in Canton, he would certainly see more than ONE person doing it. Obviously, very few people OC in the Canton area.

Reply:

Your “assumptions� and lack of empirical evidence are what is keeping us from reaching any conclusions. He may well “move about� as you put it. For most folks (in large cities) “moving about� is done primarily close to where they live. Even if specifically commissioned to do so, ONE person couldn’t adequately travel a large city and come up with any meaningful information. IMO, this is a desperate attempt to lend some credence to your argument.



frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Shasta County contains 3 cities, Redding (pop. 84000), Anderson (pop 9000), and Shasta Lake (pop 9000). If the guy lives or OC's frequently in Redding I would count him as an urban OC practicioner. If he lives and OC's in one of the two small towns or in an unincorporated area, I'd say he was in the boondocks.

Ask him how many other people he sees OC'ing, especially in Redding. My guess - very few or none.

Reply:

Wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasta_Lake%2C_California
Anderson (pop. 11,000) is a city in Shasta County, California, USA, approximately 10 miles south of Redding. The population was 9,022 at the 2000 census. As of 2007, the population is 10,580.

Redding (pop. 104,295) is the county seat of Shasta County, California, USA, located on the Sacramento River and on Interstate 5 south of Shasta Lake. It is the largest city north of Sacramento, as well as the northernmost designated metropolitan area and city with over 100,000 people in California. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 80,865. As of the most recent annexations, the population is approximately 104,295.

• Shasta Lake (or Shasta Lake City) is a city in Shasta County, California, United States. It is the closest settlement to Lake Shasta and the Shasta Dam, which are popular tourist destinations. The population was 9,008 at the 2000 census. As of 2007, the population is 10,293.

All three cities qualify.

Not that it matters. If you are anyplace where you are in close proximity to another person (even one) then feasibly…..your gun could be snatched (or an attempt). But, in the interest of being fair to you I set a minimum standard of 10,000 population.


frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Any hyperbole I may have employed aside, I've never argued that absolutely no one OC's in urban areas. Just that it is a rare occurrance. So far, I haven't seen any data refuting that. Again, the guy in Canton has only seen one other guy OC'ing in a year's time.

That's rare.

And when I am dismissed as "an idiot" or "stupid", I interpret that as coming from people who feel that my concerns are, if not unheard of, simply meaningless.

Reply:

Frankie, here are just a few of the challenges you put forth. Even though it should be incumbent upon YOU to provide statistics/info for your own argument, I instead have tried to do so at your insistence.

But when you or others tell me that snatching is not a problem in urban areas because we never hear of it, I must point out that the argument is a red herring. The reason we never hear of it is because almost no one carrys openly in urban areas.

So I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how many non-LEO's they have seen openly carrying in urban environments, or to admit that practically no one does it.

The issue is germain to the overall wisdom of carrying in that (urban) environment, and yet I never get an answer.

Reply continued:

Plainly, we can not gather enough information to warrant a real “study�.

What we can do (and what I am doing) is take a small sample from among people who OC and extrapolate it.

Let me know when you want the extrapolation to begin.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic ... forum_id=7




frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Hey, I still think it is a good line. Feel free to use it yourself any time you want.

Reply:

It may appear less clever to those whom you directed it at. My suggestion of course, is that you post it at OpenCarry and let them decide.

In closing, let me say….I am worried this thread is going to be locked because it is becoming “argumentative� more than “informative�. I have already PM’d a moderator with my concerns.

I have tried to accommodate you every way I can. When you refused to do your own work/research….I offered to find something for you. When I did, you tried to attach every restriction you could think of to it. You have presented the same arguments over and over again. You have attempted to discredit the good faith postings of persons from another forum.

I find myself having to respond to every little point of contention you make (often times the same subject matter). This makes me equally culpable for wasting everybody’s time here.

I really can’t see this thread being “fruitful� beyond this point.

As imperfect as it is, the poll is pretty much telling the story. We should glean something from that…don’t you think?

[frankie_the_yankee]

I too see problems with where this is going.

For instance, a guy says he has OC'd in a large city (Canton) for a little over a year. In that time, he says he has seen only one other person who was OC'ing, and that he wasn't sure whether that person was an LEO or not. I cite this as evidence that OC'ing is rare in that city. And you reply that I am making unwarranted assumptions.

I don't get it. The way I see it:

Things that are common

wearing shoes
driving aurtomobiles
eating at fast food places

If you were in Canton for even one day, you would see hundreds or even thousands of people doing these things.

Things that are rare

seeing President Bush in person
people riding elephants
people OC'ing

We hear from one guy who lives there that you can go for a whole year and only see someone OC'ing once. As for the others, I don't know but I would bet money that you don't see them every day either.

Now if we can't get past something obvious like this, I see no point in going further.

[frankie_the_yankee]

As imperfect as it is, the poll is pretty much telling the story. We should glean something from that…don’t you think?

Yes. That a very small group of self-selected OC proponents will self-report good things about OC'ing.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find data on how many of the approx. 500000 cops in America get shot with their own guns each year. This has not proven to be easy. The FBI gives stats on how many cops are killed or injured in the line of duty, and on the type of weapons used, but they do not seem to list whether a gun was the perp's gun or if it was taken from the cop.

So I am still looking.

As I said in another thread, I am aware of a Providence, RI cop who had his gun snatched last year and was shot dead by a much larger BG while he was questioning him at the station. But I only know of this because it was written up in the RI newspaper. I have no idea how often this happens nationwide.

But I think it might be interesting, don't you?

I am think of emailing Ayoob and see what he knows on this subject.

BTW, my data on the population of cities in Shasta County came from the Redding website. It was 2005 data. Possibly a bit out of date, but it was close. Not enough to quibble over, IMO.

[carlson1]

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find data on how many of the approx. 500000 cops in America get shot with their own guns each year. This has not proven to be easy. The FBI gives stats on how many cops are killed or injured in the line of duty, and on the type of weapons used, but they do not seem to list whether a gun was the perp's gun or if it was taken from the cop.

This should be exempt from the debate as the debate is Open Carry as civilian not LEO's.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find data on how many of the approx. 500000 cops in America get shot with their own guns each year. This has not proven to be easy. The FBI gives stats on how many cops are killed or injured in the line of duty, and on the type of weapons used, but they do not seem to list whether a gun was the perp's gun or if it was taken from the cop.

This should be exempt from the debate as the debate is Open Carry as civilian not LEO's.

IMO many of the dynamics involved are similar. And it certainly seems to me that we could learn something from the very large (comparitively) population of cops who OC.

The problem of trying to get "pure civilian" OC data is that the numbers of people who do it are very small, as I have maintained from the beginning. Go to any urban area and see how many people you can see who are OC'ing. Even in friendly Phoenix you will see very few. Frankly, it's frustrating to even have to argue this point, it is so obvious to anyone who leaves their house.

The poll on opencarry.org has drawn around 50 some responses. That is a miniscule number compared to the number of adults living in OC states who COULD OC if they wanted to.

That's why I am interested in LEO data.

[carlson1]

I agree partly with you. But, when you try to count what has happened to the Police it is not counting how many were trying to arrest, etc. . . I think a lot of the folks (against OC) think the Bad Guy is just going to walk up and attempt to TAKE your pistol. It may happen if the Bad Guy is trying to escape from court, jail, etc. . ., but I don't think you will find one Policeman who lost his gun standing in line at the local 7-11 - if you know what I mean.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I agree partly with you. But, when you try to count what has happened to the Police it is not counting how many were trying to arrest, etc. . . I think a lot of the folks (against OC) think the Bad Guy is just going to walk up and attempt to TAKE your pistol. It may happen if the Bad Guy is trying to escape from court, jail, etc. . ., but I don't think you will find one Policeman who lost his gun standing in line at the local 7-11 - if you know what I mean.

All valid points.

[KBCraig]

I hererby declare Frankie to be "King of the Moving Goalposts", and likewise declare that he wins all arguments, based on his rules, whatever they may be at this particular moment in time, unless he changes them again.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I hererby declare Frankie to be "King of the Moving Goalposts", and likewise declare that he wins all arguments, based on his rules, whatever they may be at this particular moment in time, unless he changes them again.

I said that carlson1 raised valid points, not that they refuted any of mine. I had previously stated that comparing cops to civilians was not apples to apples, for reasons that I fully enumerated.

carlson1 pointed out that cops' guns get snatched when BG's are trying to escape from custody and in other similar situations, not by someone just walking up and grabbing their gun. Given some of the advantages cops have that I listed, I am not surprised. (Briefly, there are a lot of reasons for BG's to regard cops as being "hard" targets.)

Civilians have to deal with a different dynamic because many will not seem to be such a hard target as the typical cop.

Show me where open carry is common in any urban area in this country. Note that a testimonial by someone saying, "I open carry in Canton.", is not adequate. If you had 10 testimonials, that would only prove that 10 people do it.

There are around 300 million people in America. For it to be common, lots of people have to be doing it. Just like lots of people wear shoes. Pick a city of your choice and take a photograph of a street or mall scene at a busy time. Count up the number of people OC'ing, and we'll see if it is common.

Otherwiswe, let's just get past that and simply agree that it is very rare. Then we can have an intelligent conversastion.

[flintknapper]

I too see problems with where this is going.

For instance, a guy says he has OC'd in a large city (Canton) for a little over a year. In that time, he says he has seen only one other person who was OC'ing, and that he wasn't sure whether that person was an LEO or not. I cite this as evidence that OC'ing is rare in that city. And you reply that I am making unwarranted assumptions.

I don't get it. The way I see it:

Things that are common

wearing shoes
driving aurtomobiles
eating at fast food places

If you were in Canton for even one day, you would see hundreds or even thousands of people doing these things.

Things that are rare

seeing President Bush in person
people riding elephants
people OC'ing

We hear from one guy who lives there that you can go for a whole year and only see someone OC'ing once. As for the others, I don't know but I would bet money that you don't see them every day either.

Now if we can't get past something obvious like this, I see no point in going further.

Shhheeeeesh!

[flintknapper]

As imperfect as it is, the poll is pretty much telling the story. We should glean something from that…don’t you think?

Yes. That a very small group of self-selected OC proponents will self-report good things about OC'ing.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find data on how many of the approx. 500000 cops in America get shot with their own guns each year. This has not proven to be easy. The FBI gives stats on how many cops are killed or injured in the line of duty, and on the type of weapons used, but they do not seem to list whether a gun was the perp's gun or if it was taken from the cop.

So I am still looking.

As I said in another thread, I am aware of a Providence, RI cop who had his gun snatched last year and was shot dead by a much larger BG while he was questioning him at the station. But I only know of this because it was written up in the RI newspaper. I have no idea how often this happens nationwide.

But I think it might be interesting, don't you?

I am think of emailing Ayoob and see what he knows on this subject.

BTW, my data on the population of cities in Shasta County came from the Redding website. It was 2005 data. Possibly a bit out of date, but it was close. Not enough to quibble over, IMO.

Frankie wrote:

Yes. That a very small group of self-selected OC proponents will self-report good things about OC'ing.

Reply:
Actually, it is a forum comprised of members living in different environments from one coast to the other, it represents a polling group 50 times larger than the one you have presented, which consists of one (yourself).

“Self Selected�? When you look for information concerning OC…the obvious place to go…is to people who actually do that, yes? Similarly, if I had questions of a medical nature, I would go to a doctor for advice. And this is unreasonable?


Frankie wrote:

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find data on how many of the approx. 500000 cops in America get shot with their own guns each year. This has not proven to be easy. The FBI gives stats on how many cops are killed or injured in the line of duty, and on the type of weapons used, but they do not seem to list whether a gun was the perp's gun or if it was taken from the cop.

Reply:
Please don’t do this and then present it here for sake of your argument. The ONLY parallel that can be drawn between LEO and everyday Citizens OCing… is that a handgun resides in a holster openly.
This would be like comparing a skier on the beginners slope with a downhill racer because they both have skis.


Frankie wrote:

But I think it might be interesting, don't you?

Reply:
No, but if you have the time and just want to….I’ll read it.

Frankie wrote:

I am think of emailing Ayoob and see what he knows on this subject.

Reply:
Just direct him here.

Frankie wrote:

BTW, my data on the population of cities in Shasta County came from the Redding website. It was 2005 data. Possibly a bit out of date, but it was close. Not enough to quibble over, IMO.

Reply:
It wasn’t “possibly� out of date… and if it wasn’t enough to “quibble over� then why did you?



Again, I see no more "information" being brought to the table, only argument (my own included). I have done my best to present you with accounts of persons OCing. No snatching have been reported thus far.

You can continue to challenge/discredit this information if you wish. I have offered it up from the very beginning as "imperfect" but something we might all learn from.

Plainly, it does not support your argument....(and that in itself does NOT make you wrong). However, to convince me of that...you will need to provide your own information that validates/supports your assertions.

This means using the same demographics (Not cops, not security guards) just the plain old citizenry.


Thank you for your efforts and participation.

Flint.

[flintknapper]

Note that a testimonial by someone saying, "I open carry in Canton.", is not adequate. If you had 10 testimonials, that would only prove that 10 people do it.

The hypocritical nature of this statement is stunning!

Is this not the same ONE person you seek to hold up as proof that OC is not common in Canton (or any other urban environment). You made quite the crusade out of that IIRC.

Frankie wrote:

For instance, a guy says he has OC'd in a large city (Canton) for a little over a year. In that time, he says he has seen only one other person who was OC'ing, and that he wasn't sure whether that person was an LEO or not. I cite this as evidence that OC'ing is rare in that city. And you reply that I am making unwarranted assumptions.