Carelessness in Public Restrooms

[E.Marquez]

The odds of an AD go up astronomically every time you handle a firearm outside of it's holster.

EDIT:
Of note.. I don't think Wildrose you were directly saying YOU are astronomical libel to have a ND by handling your weapon outside of a holster, so my comment above does not necessarily apply to you..



While I understand, the ND statistically is less likely if the gun is in a holster..
Every time I read something like that above, My thought is//There is a person that should not handle a firearm.

In no way, shape or form do I believe odds go up "astronomically every time" I handle my firearm... If that were true, we would have an astronomical number of ND's daily as hundreds of thousands of weapons Id venture to say are handled every day loaded and outside of a holster.
My position is supported by the up close and personal observation and experience of seeing weapons weapons handled out side of a holster every hour of every day months at a time, day in and day out... test of thousand of personal observations over the course of 30 years or so.
Does an ND occasionally happen? You bet.... 14,500 "trained" people over 14 months handling loaded weapons 24 hours a day had 115 ND's in those 14 months. I also investigated 2 AD's, a discharge truly not due to negligence.

I get the general position, an ND is more possible if your handling the weapon vice it sitting in a holster ..that's just probability numbers that cant be disputed.
But a probability is not the same as an event actually happening.

My bottom line.. If one feels that handling a weapon is astronomically increasing your chance of an ND.... that person should not handle a loaded weapon until that astronomically high liability is mitigated though proper and effective training.

[oljames3]

The late Paul Gomez promoted the concept of having one method of handling a firearm. For me, in its simplest form, this means that my pistol lives in its holster unless I am shooting or training. When my pistol leaves the holster, it is either pointed at a target down range (safe direction) or I immediately unload it in preparation for training or cleaning.

My holstered pistol stays on my belt, or in my hand, or wherever SWMBO tells me to (safely) secure it. It is under my control or secured.

Having one method makes it easier for my brain to manage.

[rdcrags]

Since I cross-draw, stringing the belt through the loops is much easier with the pistol removed. So, I carefully unholster, string, and then carefully holster.

[WildRose]

The odds of an AD go up astronomically every time you handle a firearm outside of it's holster.

EDIT:
Of note.. I don't think Wildrose you were directly saying YOU are astronomical libel to have a ND by handling your weapon outside of a holster, so my comment above does not necessarily apply to you..

EM is just the math. It is virtually impossible for a properly holstered firearm to ever discharge. You can review as many thousands of AD reports as you can find and in over 99.9% of cases the firearm was not properly holstered at the time.

It's just like getting into a car wreck, your odds go up astronomically of getting into an accident the second you start the ignition.

While I understand, the ND statistically is less likely if the gun is in a holster..
Every time I read something like that above, My thought is//There is a person that should not handle a firearm.

Then perhaps you need to adjust your thinking.

In no way, shape or form do I believe odds go up "astronomically every time" I handle my firearm... If that were true, we would have an astronomical number of ND's daily as hundreds of thousands of weapons Id venture to say are handled every day loaded and outside of a holster.
My position is supported by the up close and personal observation and experience of seeing weapons weapons handled out side of a holster every hour of every day months at a time, day in and day out... test of thousand of personal observations over the course of 30 years or so.
Does an ND occasionally happen? You bet.... 14,500 "trained" people over 14 months handling loaded weapons 24 hours a day had 115 ND's in those 14 months. I also investigated 2 AD's, a discharge truly not due to negligence.

As has been outlined above this is completely false. It's not about how well you handle firearms, it's about the math.

I get the general position, an ND is more possible if your handling the weapon vice it sitting in a holster ..that's just probability numbers that cant be disputed.
But a probability is not the same as an event actually happening.

It's both. Firearms are inanimate objects that can only discharge when an outside force acts upon them.

My bottom line.. If one feels that handling a weapon is astronomically increasing your chance of an ND.... that person should not handle a loaded weapon until that astronomically high liability is mitigated though proper and effective training.

An opinion which is refuted by the facts.

[WildRose]

Since I cross-draw, stringing the belt through the loops is much easier with the pistol removed. So, I carefully unholster, string, and then carefully holster.

As long as you are careful, consistent, and keep a properly maintained firearm the chances you'll ever have a problem are extremely slim.

In general we tend to be very lax in this country when it comes to safe firearms handling which is reflected sadly in the numbers of AD/ND injuries and deaths that occur every year.

Until you get some good, and I do mean good, basic firearms safety training where you have lots of people handling firearms in all sorts of situations and an opportunity to observe them you'd never believe how many "unsafe acts" are committed every day by people who themselves and whom most people would consider to be responsible people.

[E.Marquez]

My bottom line.. If one feels that handling a wehttps://texaschlforum.com/ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&sid=27974f6b877d06769b11da86d2520971apon is astronomically increasing your chance of an ND.... that person should not handle a loaded weapon until that astronomically high liability is mitigated though proper and effective training.

An opinion which is refuted by the facts.

What you ignore or do not understand is the demographic that has your astronomical chance of an ND because they handle a firearm. Yes, of course the untrained have an astronomical chance of having an ND when they so much as touch a loaded firearm... On the other hand my 8 year old sons had very little chance of having an ND because they were trained. The few have the many,,,not the many will all have an astronomical chance of an ND.. The Math of reality proves this.. You can play with numbers in theory, I'll continue to make real life observations and take note your position is not what I observe daily.

Again, if you or anyone you know has an astronomical high chance of having an ND when they handle a firearm, they should not be handling a firearm until properly trained. Its just math.. but I think you no that and just wish to argue.. and for that reason I'm done, you may have the last word.

We will just have to agree to disagree

[oljames3]

Get a retention holster and stop worrying about it!

Safariland 7TS ALS

[WildRose]

My bottom line.. If one feels that handling a wehttps://texaschlforum.com/ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&sid=27974f6b877d06769b11da86d2520971apon is astronomically increasing your chance of an ND.... that person should not handle a loaded weapon until that astronomically high liability is mitigated though proper and effective training.

An opinion which is refuted by the facts.

What you ignore or do not understand is the demographic that has your astronomical chance of an ND because they handle a firearm. Yes, of course the untrained have an astronomical chance of having an ND when they so much as touch a loaded firearm... On the other hand my 8 year old sons had very little chance of having an ND because they were trained. The few have the many,,,not the many will all have an astronomical chance of an ND.. The Math of reality proves this.. You can play with numbers in theory, I'll continue to make real life observations and take note your position is not what I observe daily.

Again, if you or anyone you know has an astronomical high chance of having an ND when they handle a firearm, they should not be handling a firearm until properly trained. Its just math.. but I think you no that and just wish to argue.. and for that reason I'm done, you may have the last word.

We will just have to agree to disagree

I haven't ignored anything. The more you handle firearms the more likely you are eventually to make a mistake with one. It's simply math.

It's just like driving, the more miles you drive the more likely you are to eventually have an accident due to a split second of carelessness.

The chances of someone who routinely handles gun in a safe and responsible manner having such an ND/AD are extremely low but they are many orders of magnitude higher than they are for someone who never handles a firearm at all.

Bottom line, why take the risk? None of us are perfect and accidents do happen.

[Pawpaw]

I haven't ignored anything. The more you handle firearms the more likely you are eventually to make a mistake with one. It's simply math.

Unfortunately, the math falls on it's face when confronted with reality.

Firearm ownership has been increasing for decades, with a huge surge from 2008 to 2016. It stands to reason that with increased ownership, there is more handling going on.

Despite that growth, accidental death & injury from firearms accidents has fallen year after year.

[flechero]

Without re-reading this entire thread, I'll respectfully offer this... If you can't take a dump without shooting your gun, or forgetting it in the stall you should have your ltc revoked. If you haven't thought about how to address mother nature in a public restroom before needing to use said restroom, you are ill prepared to carry a gun, period.

Maybe instead of the simple shooting test, the ltc class should focus on actual handling of a firearm. You'll handle a gun WAY more often that you will shoot one. (and if you don't, that's another sign that something is amiss)

Off the soapbox now. Carry on.

[mayor]

Early after receiving my LTC I learned - I believe in a thread on this very site - to put my belt buckle in the first belt hole to allow my pants to drop only as far as I need to do my business. I think the term was "it ain't rocket science."

(Sorry, mom, I know I shouldn't be talking like this in public. )

[WildRose]

I haven't ignored anything. The more you handle firearms the more likely you are eventually to make a mistake with one. It's simply math.

Unfortunately, the math falls on it's face when confronted with reality.

Firearm ownership has been increasing for decades, with a huge surge from 2008 to 2016. It stands to reason that with increased ownership, there is more handling going on.

Despite that growth, accidental death & injury from firearms accidents has fallen year after year.

Firearms ownership has fallen by nearly half since the 1960's. Today we have about 40% of homes that have at least one firearm in them (lawfully) but, while the number of owners has gone down dramatically during that period more and more of us own multiple firearms.

The math doesn't fail, we have over 5x as many accidental shootings in the US each year than we have intentional homicides.

Every time you handle a loaded weapon there is a chance you will mishandle it. The easiest way to avoid such accidents is to keep it holstered period until you have to use it or need to put it away.

[WildRose]

Without re-reading this entire thread, I'll respectfully offer this... If you can't take a dump without shooting your gun, or forgetting it in the stall you should have your ltc revoked. If you haven't thought about how to address mother nature in a public restroom before needing to use said restroom, you are ill prepared to carry a gun, period.

Maybe instead of the simple shooting test, the ltc class should focus on actual handling of a firearm. You'll handle a gun WAY more often that you will shoot one. (and if you don't, that's another sign that something is amiss)

Off the soapbox now. Carry on.

The LTC test assumes you have already achieved some level of basic competency. Anyone who is thinking of carrying should start out with some basic instruction such as an NRA Basic Pistol Class.

Above and beyond that the NRA has quite a few courses that will help to make you a much more competent defensive shooter and safe gun handling is drummed into your head through each and ever level of NRA training.

Well worth the investment.

[Pawpaw]

I haven't ignored anything. The more you handle firearms the more likely you are eventually to make a mistake with one. It's simply math.

Unfortunately, the math falls on it's face when confronted with reality.

Firearm ownership has been increasing for decades, with a huge surge from 2008 to 2016. It stands to reason that with increased ownership, there is more handling going on.

Despite that growth, accidental death & injury from firearms accidents has fallen year after year.

Firearms ownership has fallen by nearly half since the 1960's. Today we have about 40% of homes that have at least one firearm in them (lawfully) but, while the number of owners has gone down dramatically during that period more and more of us own multiple firearms.

The math doesn't fail, we have over 5x as many accidental shootings in the US each year than we have intentional homicides.

Every time you handle a loaded weapon there is a chance you will mishandle it. The easiest way to avoid such accidents is to keep it holstered period until you have to use it or need to put it away.

I don't know where your're getting your information, but it doesn't hold up.

The percentage of households with firearms has remained basically unchanged from 1972 to 2017.

Percentage of households in the United States owning one or more firearms from 1972 to 2017

The number of accidental deaths fell from 824 in 1999 to 489 in 2015.

Amid rising gun violence, accidental shooting deaths have plummeted.