.22 cal LR not reliable for SD, is a .380?

[puma guy]

Puma guy, your stories about selling .25 auto pistols reminds me of that famous quote by the late Col. Jeff Cooper, who said:

[C]arry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you.

Cooper also said that a .25 wasn’t sufficient to clear one’s sinuses, let along anything else.

If I had to choose between a .25 and a .22 LR, I’d take the .22 for sure.

Perhaps another consideration might be the Keltec PMR-30 in .22 Magnum. Go to http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321, and scroll down until you see the post from “opiodergics-ga” beginning with

“My name is Jesse (online name Danny Bishop). I myself was shot--in the chest--on November 27th, 1994, at point-blank range with a .22" magnum revolver”

The poster describes in some detail the injuries he suffered, what it felt like to be shot by that round, and permanent impact it had on his life..... which is not good.

And that was a “mere” .22 magnum.

No pun intended, but it really is a hit or miss thing. Like I said above, I’ve seen people killed by .22s, and I’ve held a conversation with someone who had been shot through the right ventricle with a 9mm and was still alert, oriented, and talking.

Jeff was a smart man and possessed sage wisdom. I have a friend, a police officer, who was shot in the head by a junk yard guard while off duty. The junk yard was in an area on the outskirts of Houston where police would gather and shoot at night. My friend Dick took a friend there to pop a few caps one night and when leaving drove past the junk yard and the guard threw a round at the car hitting Dick in the temple. He said he thought they were up to no good because the car was going fast. Dick's corvette ended up in a ditch and he thought the wound on his temple was from the accident. The .38 bullet traversed his brain following the inside of his skull to the opposite side without exiting. He was talking and acting completely normal before they discovered what it was and rushed him into surgery or alert and oriented X three as you're very familiar with. Just wasn't his time.

[K.Mooneyham]

All the Officers that I know carry some sidearm in .40 or .45 when given a choice of caliber. When I inquired as to why. One drug task force Officer said that it knocks them on there butt after the 1st hit......even the PCP loonies.

Still all about shot placement. PCP was a big problem back late 70s, IIRC. Anyway, I had a much older cousin who was a police officer down in the Houston area. I remember him telling my dad and uncle a story about a guy violently high on that stuff who took a .357 to the head (after other hits to the body), literally took part of it off. The officer who shot him obviously got a solid hits, but it didn't drop the guy, he kept coming with a knife in his hand. Took a Remington 870 with buckshot to the legs to drop the guy. I mean, he was "dead" from the .357 but his body just didn't get the message because of the drug. Bad stuff, very bad stuff.

[Sidro]

Not advocating the carry of this caliber at all, but I believe it would be better than a .22 or .25 for someone recoil shy. Rock Island has the .22TCM in a 1911 that is fairly easy to rack and recoil is not bad. It does make a lot of noise when fired and has a fairly good punch coming out of a 9mm case necked down to .22 caliber.

[cmgee67]

I can’t stand these caliber war threads. Choose what you want to carry and stay consistent. Carrying a 1911 in 45 is no good to you if you leave the 3lb gun at home. There have been multiple studies proving 380 and 9mm. They are essentially the same bullet just different charges. Everyone wants to poo on anything other than a 45. If you feel inadequate carrying anything less than a 50AE then go ahead. In my humble opinion being armed is the most important thing. 99% of us have not been in a SD situation where a gun was needed and chances are we won’t. People get so wrapped up in what caliber, brand, and type of hollow point to carry that it is quite ridiculous. Do your own research make your own decision and life moves on. Nobody is going to care what caliber you carry or wether it’s a Glock or a Sig in your holster except you. Be proficient with what you have and live life.

[mrvmax]

This has been and will continue to be addressed ad nauseum, it’s just the nature of the topic. Some info on documented SD round use is great, some is too biased to rely upon. Think about it logically, you need to stop a deadly threat that is trying to take your life or someone around you. The piece of metal you fire needs to disrupt a vital component of the attackers body to stop it from functioning enough to stop the attack and anything that accomplishes that will work. The question is what will give you a greater chance of hitting a vital area to stop the attack? Certainly a larger projectile increases the odds. Higher velocity and accuracy will also increase the odds. Decide how you will stack those odds in your favor and pray that you never live to see the day when you need to prove it out.

[The Annoyed Man]

This has been and will continue to be addressed ad nauseum, it’s just the nature of the topic. Some info on documented SD round use is great, some is too biased to rely upon. Think about it logically, you need to stop a deadly threat that is trying to take your life or someone around you. The piece of metal you fire needs to disrupt a vital component of the attackers body to stop it from functioning enough to stop the attack and anything that accomplishes that will work. The question is what will give you a greater chance of hitting a vital area to stop the attack? Certainly a larger projectile increases the odds. Higher velocity and accuracy will also increase the odds. Decide how you will stack those odds in your favor and pray that you never live to see the day when you need to prove it out.

Exactly. The only way to be reasonably sure is to carry a centerfire long gun not in a pistol caliber ..... but even that is not fail safe.

[flechero]

A 1911 with 8 rounds that misses 8 times is not as effective as a fully loaded Glock 17 that hits 1/2 of the time.

So regardless of the caliber debate, how do you figure the above? The guy with a 1911 misses all his shots but the guy w/ a glock hits at a 50% rate???????

[flechero]

Everyone wants to poo on anything other than a 45.

I'd take the .45acp over the 9mm every time if I could. But I still carry a 9mm when I have to be more discreet. That's not pooing it, just being more comfortable with a bigger caliber.

Saying that 9mm is the min acceptable caliber, as many more do, is poo-pooing the .380 and smaller. Ironically, most people [not saying you] who tout the developments in 9mm, and dis the .45acp- turn around and carry a 115gr fmj... for the lower price & recoil, which nullifies every single advancement in bullet technology and dilutes their choice in gun.


To the OP:
Clearly I'm a fan of the 45acp. I have little real world experience to compare the 9mm/.45acp- only hunting [or dispatching animals] with a handguns. I have talked at length with a number of Vets who have had to use .45acp handguns in actual battle every one touted the swiftness of the stop. (and they only had FMJ ammo)

Couple all of that with the fact I shoot the guns I have in 45 better than the guns I have in 9mm and the choice is obvious. If someone wants to give me an STI Gaurdian 9 to try out to see if my splits come down, I'll gladly make an apples to apples comparison!

[Pawpaw]

Not advocating the carry of this caliber at all, but I believe it would be better than a .22 or .25 for someone recoil shy. Rock Island has the .22TCM in a 1911 that is fairly easy to rack and recoil is not bad. It does make a lot of noise when fired and has a fairly good punch coming out of a 9mm case necked down to .22 caliber.

Actually, the .22 TCM is based on the .223 case, but that is an extremely minor point.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... cartridge/

[stash]

This thread makes me wonder why the FBI has gone to the 9mm after about twenty years or so of carrying .40. I assume they know a thing or two about calibers.

[puma guy]

This has been and will continue to be addressed ad nauseum, it’s just the nature of the topic. Some info on documented SD round use is great, some is too biased to rely upon. Think about it logically, you need to stop a deadly threat that is trying to take your life or someone around you. The piece of metal you fire needs to disrupt a vital component of the attackers body to stop it from functioning enough to stop the attack and anything that accomplishes that will work. The question is what will give you a greater chance of hitting a vital area to stop the attack? Certainly a larger projectile increases the odds. Higher velocity and accuracy will also increase the odds. Decide how you will stack those odds in your favor and pray that you never live to see the day when you need to prove it out.

Think I'll go get some popcorn, now!

[Abraham]

cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.



To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

[howdy]

Time for a physics review
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

"Although both mass and velocity contribute to the muzzle energy, the muzzle energy is proportional to the mass while proportional to the square of the velocity. The velocity of the bullet is a more important determinant of muzzle energy. For a constant velocity, if the mass is doubled, the energy is doubled; however, for a constant mass, if the velocity is doubled, the muzzle energy increases four times. In the SI system the above Ek will be in unit joule if the mass, m, is in kilogram, and the speed, v, is in metre per second."

This is why an AR-15 shooting a 55 grain bullet produces twice the energy as a 230 grain .45 bullet. (3000 fps vs. 800 fps)

[puma guy]

cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.



To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

Abraham,
Some may not have had their coffee. I do find it interesting and telling that so many new pistols in .380 have come out in recent years. Markets react to demands.

[Pawpaw]

This thread makes me wonder why the FBI has gone to the 9mm after about twenty years or so of carrying .40. I assume they know a thing or two about calibers.

That is not a good example.

What the FBI knows is that qualification scores were down using the .40. It was far cheaper to switch back to 9mm than it was to properly train everyone and provide more practice.