El Paso Walmart Shooting

[imkopaka]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

[rotor]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.

[imkopaka]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.

Firearms on Licensed Premises
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) AB Code]
The Commission shall cancel a retail alcoholic beverage
permit or license if it is found, after notice and hearing, that
the permittee or licensee knowingly allowed a person to
possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises.
(See “Exceptions” below for instances when a person may
carry a firearm on the premises.)

Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Section 46.02 Texas Penal Code]
A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club. (See § 46.02 Texas Penal Code for full
text.)
An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
An offense under this section is a third degree felony if the
offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a
permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages. (See
“Exceptions” below for instances when a person may carry
a firearm on a premises licensed or issued a permit by this
state to sell alcoholic beverages.)

Exceptions to Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) Alcoholic Beverage Code,
Section 46.15 Texas Penal Code]
Texas Peace Officer’s Guide
36
Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) of the Alcoholic Beverage
Code and Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code do not
apply to a person who:
1. holds a security officer commission issued under
Chapter 1702 by the Texas Occupations Code, if:
a. the person is engaged in the performance of the
person’s duties as a security officer;
b. the person is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
c. the weapon is in plain view;
2. is a peace officer;
3. is an alcoholic beverage licensee or permittee or
employee of a licensee or permittee if the person is
supervising the operation of the premises; or the firearm
is possessed for ceremonial and/or display purposes, if
such firearm is disabled from use as a firearm;
4. possesses a handgun and the person is licensed to
carry;
5. is engaged in an historic reenactment approved by the
Commission and no live ammunition is present; or
6. possesses a concealed handgun inside of or directly
en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person’s control and the person is not:
a. engaged in criminal activity other than a Class C
misdemeanor traffic or boating violation; or
b. prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
c. a member of a criminal street gang as defined in
the Penal Code.
Alcoholic Beverage Code
37
An offense still occurs if the licensee/permittee is on the
premises of a business that has a mixed beverage permit,
a private club registration permit, a wine and beer retailer’s
permit or a beer retailer’s on-premise license if the business
derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of
alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption.

This pretty clearly states that any firearm qualifies unless it is a licensed handgun, police, security detail, etc.

[rotor]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

I agree but they seem to define weapon as a handgun, illegal knife or club.

Firearms on Licensed Premises
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) AB Code]
The Commission shall cancel a retail alcoholic beverage
permit or license if it is found, after notice and hearing, that
the permittee or licensee knowingly allowed a person to
possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises.
(See “Exceptions” below for instances when a person may
carry a firearm on the premises.)

Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Section 46.02 Texas Penal Code]
A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun,
illegal knife, or club. (See § 46.02 Texas Penal Code for full
text.)
An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
An offense under this section is a third degree felony if the
offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a
permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages. (See
“Exceptions” below for instances when a person may carry
a firearm on a premises licensed or issued a permit by this
state to sell alcoholic beverages.)

Exceptions to Unlawful Carrying of Weapons
[Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) Alcoholic Beverage Code,
Section 46.15 Texas Penal Code]
Texas Peace Officer’s Guide
36
Sections 11.61(e) and 61.71(f) of the Alcoholic Beverage
Code and Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code do not
apply to a person who:
1. holds a security officer commission issued under
Chapter 1702 by the Texas Occupations Code, if:
a. the person is engaged in the performance of the
person’s duties as a security officer;
b. the person is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
c. the weapon is in plain view;
2. is a peace officer;
3. is an alcoholic beverage licensee or permittee or
employee of a licensee or permittee if the person is
supervising the operation of the premises; or the firearm
is possessed for ceremonial and/or display purposes, if
such firearm is disabled from use as a firearm;
4. possesses a handgun and the person is licensed to
carry;
5. is engaged in an historic reenactment approved by the
Commission and no live ammunition is present; or
6. possesses a concealed handgun inside of or directly
en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person’s control and the person is not:
a. engaged in criminal activity other than a Class C
misdemeanor traffic or boating violation; or
b. prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
c. a member of a criminal street gang as defined in
the Penal Code.
Alcoholic Beverage Code
37
An offense still occurs if the licensee/permittee is on the
premises of a business that has a mixed beverage permit,
a private club registration permit, a wine and beer retailer’s
permit or a beer retailer’s on-premise license if the business
derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of
alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption.

This pretty clearly states that any firearm qualifies unless it is a licensed handgun, police, security detail, etc.

It appears that they can lose their license if they allow firearms but it is only an offense if you carry a handgun and are not ltc holder.

So the definition of weapon for the person carrying appears to be handgun, club or illegal knife.

Interpretation of these laws is confusing to say the least. Way off thread topic. In my interpretation the Wal-Mart could lose their license allowing firearms but the shooter was not in violation carrying a long gun. They do sell long guns at Wal-Mart or at least they used to. They are blue signed and sell firearms.

[RoyGBiv]

I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns,

Only WalMart I ever saw posting no gins signs was in NM, some place west of Albuquerque, IIRC.

I tried to go in there around 10:PM, saw the sign and drove on down the road. Lots of bad juju walking in the parking lot. Wasn't going to disarm. Didn't need that lip balm quite as bad as I thought. Bought some at the gas station by the interstate. Paid too much, but, that was just fine.

[carlson1]

I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns,

I hope they do not start behind this killing.

[philip964]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

Clearly a long gum is not a weapon.

[rotor]

TABC signs refers to weapons but long gum is not a weapon.
Correct web site.
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/other ... sGuide.pdf

How exactly do you figure a rifle or shotgun is not a weapon?

Clearly a long gum is not a weapon.

Clearly? Mission Impossible has that explosive gum. Hard to use on a small iPhone.

[Maxwell]

I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?

[ScooterSissy]

Is this Walmart in El Paso posted? I saw earlier where someone said the mall was but what about the Walmart?

I have never seen a Walmart post anything barring guns, however, to my knowledge ALL Walmarts in Texas sell beer and wine, and are therefore required by TABC to post blue signs. Said signs make it illegal to carry a rifle inside (or any other firearm that isn't carried under the authority of LTC). So, it was illegal for him to carry the gun he had into Walmart.

The TABC requirements are for one of two different signs. I believe Walmart falls under "establishments whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. It warns that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony."

Selling beer and wine does not disqualify LTC, unless they also post 30-60 & 30-07, unless the establishment is a 51%, making 51% or more of their sales in alcohol.

[oljames3]

I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?

Not enough people carrying and/or willing to defend.

Crime Prevention Research Center, 2018, published data on the number of license/permit holders by state. Texas was below the national average.
https://crimeresearch.org/2018/08/new-s ... inorities/

So, being generous, 7% of the adults in El Paso might have an LTC. Of that 7&+%, maybe half would be carrying. Of that 7%, maybe 1% have had any training. LTC does not count. http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-o ... nt-part-1/

Pick a number of adults you think were in the Walmart and do the math. How many adults would have to be present for 1 LTC holder, with training, to be present? Way too many.

[Liberty]

I had a coworker in CA ask me: Why didn't anyone fight back?

Not enough people carrying and/or willing to defend.

Crime Prevention Research Center, 2018, published data on the number of license/permit holders by state. Texas was below the national average.
https://crimeresearch.org/2018/08/new-s ... inorities/

So, being generous, 7% of the adults in El Paso might have an LTC. Of that 7&+%, maybe half would be carrying. Of that 7%, maybe 1% have had any training. LTC does not count. http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-o ... nt-part-1/

Pick a number of adults you think were in the Walmart and do the math. How many adults would have to be present for 1 LTC holder, with training, to be present? Way too many.

The figures would be skewed even lower. There was a significant percentage of Mexican Nationals. Walmart at that time of day would have a lot more women ( who are more unlikely to carry.)

This looked to be a huge Walmart. It's possible the shooter just got away before an LTC holder could get to where the shots were coming from.+

[oljames3]

Pinning down a number is difficult if not impossible. In any case, it is depressingly low. Thus, it is indeed unlikely that a willing and able defender did not have the opportunity to act.

I found this link of one person who left her revolver at home.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/el-pa ... er-pistol/

[Oldgringo]

Speaking of "whys", why didn't the cameras pick him up and someone sound an alarm before the killings started?