open carry on your property?

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frankie_the_yankee
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#16

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

Mr.Lebowski wrote: I'm sure that you could be charged with something.
Nope. OC on your own property is legal as breathing. You can't be charged with anything as long as you stay on your property.
Mr.Lebowski wrote: You can't go walking around your front yard naked, they'll get you for indecent exposure because passers by can see.
Not the same thing. It is illegal to allow certain body parts to be exposed to public view. So you are violating the law if you do that in your front yard.

It is not illegal to expose a firearm to public view when you are on your own property. So there is no violation. Specifically, being on your own property is an exception to the general offense of carrying a handgun.
Mr.Lebowski wrote: I would love to be able to OC but I'm not going to even on my property because to many people are scared of guns and I'd rather them not skew the facts when they call the cops on me.
If you want to keep a low profile that's fine. But just recognize that there is nothing whatever in the law that prevents you from OC'ing on your own property. And if someone calls the cops on you, that person will have the law explained to them by the cops.
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#17

Post by casingpoint »

"They did all of this in the name clarity."
The Governor is an Aggie. It's all very clear now how this came came to pass.
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nitrogen
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#18

Post by nitrogen »

This reminds me of a funny story with a bit of a bearing on the discussion here.

When I first moved into my house, the neighbors kid was drawing chalk drawings in front of my house. Some of these drawings were somewhat objectionable (bad words, nakedness, etc) and I asked the kid to wipe it off and keep it on his own property.

The kid replied, "The sidewalk is government property! I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT!"

Being the argumentative person I am, I replied, "Son, it really is my property. The sidewalk is what's called an easement, meaning that even though it's my property, others are allowed to access it."

"...."

I unrolled my hose and the kid and I cleaned up his mess, then his dad came home, and I had afew words with him about it.

The point is, being technically right doesn't mean you won't have an argument, as the gentleman pointed out, in regards to boundaries, etc. Those arguments might end up being with a police officer. As is often said, "you might beat the rap, but not the ride." So be careful when you do this.

Having said that, I tend to open carry on my property mostly because I'm working in the yard, and sweat a lot, and staying concealed is annoying while sweating so much. I've yet to have a problem.
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frankie_the_yankee
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#19

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

I've had my property surveyed and I know exactly where the property lines are. I OC on my property all the time. Of course I live on a small spread on a dead end road outside of town, so the only time someone might see me carrying is if they happen to drive by while I'm cutting my grass.

But I'd do the same thing if I lived on a city lot.

Back in RI I did live on a city lot. And I OC'd in my yard from time to time. Never had a hint of a problem over it. I figure no one ever noticed. But if they had, the law in RI fully allows OC or CC on your own property, so there would have been no repurcussions if they had.
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KBCraig
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#20

Post by KBCraig »

"Right of way" is the big issue when it comes to approaching your mail box.

It's a Catch-22. Go ahead and measure the RoW from the center of your street, and then decline to mow anything outside your property line. The city will most likely come a-calling. They'll insist that it is your property, and you must maintain it.

On the other paw, if you have rural property and want to ride your 4-wheeler along the fence line to visit your neighbor, the DPS trooper will kindly, professionally, politely, inform you that the RoW belongs to the State of Texas, and you are illegally operating an unregistered motor vehicle on a Texas roadway.

Catch-22.

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#21

Post by threeg45 »

My wife completed her CHL course a month ago and this was one of the questions asked. The answer was no. Premises is the building the same as a school building. We were told you step out side the front door and you are breaking the law. The instructor was a Fort Worth police officer. If this is bad information we would like to know.
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anygunanywhere
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#22

Post by anygunanywhere »

threeg45 wrote:My wife completed her CHL course a month ago and this was one of the questions asked. The answer was no. Premises is the building the same as a school building. We were told you step out side the front door and you are breaking the law. The instructor was a Fort Worth police officer. If this is bad information we would like to know.
Bad information. I open carry all around my yard, driveway, and detached garage. I live in the League City city limits. Neighbors see me all the time.

A few members have posted warnings about easements and property lines. I do not worry about these since I would not stray into the street or into the neighbors property. Both my neighbors would not say anything even if I did.

If what the instructor told you was true then if you had a 1000 acre spread you would get busted just walking off your porch. I think not.


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stevie_d_64
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#23

Post by stevie_d_64 »

KBCraig wrote:"Right of way" is the big issue when it comes to approaching your mail box.

It's a Catch-22. Go ahead and measure the RoW from the center of your street, and then decline to mow anything outside your property line. The city will most likely come a-calling. They'll insist that it is your property, and you must maintain it.

On the other paw, if you have rural property and want to ride your 4-wheeler along the fence line to visit your neighbor, the DPS trooper will kindly, professionally, politely, inform you that the RoW belongs to the State of Texas, and you are illegally operating an unregistered motor vehicle on a Texas roadway.

Catch-22.
Kinda like selective enforcement...

I bet I know where the line in the sand is when it concerns firearms...No matter how they are carried...

I remember as a kid right here in this neighborhood we all took BB guns and .22 rifles to the drainage ditch a few blocks away to see how many snapping turtles we could plink from the bridge railing...More BBguns than .22 of course...

That was back in the 70's...I think I recall seeing a few .22's still being shouldered in the early 80's...But that was about it...

That was wayyyyy outside personal property...But we were just kids...Amazingly we could leave them outside the door to the 7-11 right on the corner, walk in and get some candy, grab a soda, play a few video games (very new technology at .25 cents a pop) gert tired of that and go home...No big deal...

Very different ninny world we live in now...
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frankie_the_yankee
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#24

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

threeg45 wrote:My wife completed her CHL course a month ago and this was one of the questions asked. The answer was no. Premises is the building the same as a school building. We were told you step out side the front door and you are breaking the law. The instructor was a Fort Worth police officer. If this is bad information we would like to know.
I think it is bad info, and the key lies somewhere in Sec. 46.15, the Nonapplicability statute.

This statute lists the many exceptions to the general prohibition against carrying a handgun.

First, Sec. 46.02, the general prohibition.
§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
Now, in 46.035, "premises" is defined as follows:
(f) In this section:

3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
Note that the definition is limited to "this section", meaning specifically 46.035. So it does not apply to other sections of Ch. 46 unless so specified.

Finally, we get down to Sec. 46.15 "Nonapplicability".
§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03
do not apply to:

..............

(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision (5);
Sounds like the statute is referring to a building of some sort, right? But then there is subdivision (b) (4) below.
4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is directly en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
Since hunting and fishing in particular are not generally done inside of buildings, the word "premises" must mean something different here than in other places in the chapter.

I have always understood the meaning of "premises" in the "Nonapplicability" section to mean one's own property. But I cannot find the place in the law where this is defined.

Either that or there is some other section of law that carves out an exception to the general prohibition against carrying a handgun when on one's own property. But if there is I cannot find it at the moment.

I must be making an error of some sort here. Can someone please point out to me what it is?
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seamusTX
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#25

Post by seamusTX »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Now, in 46.035, "premises" is defined as follows:
(f) In this section:
3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
I think you are correct. That definition of premises applies only to PC 46.03 and 46.035.

The legislative intent of the bill that added that definition was to permit CHLs on school grounds.

Here is a different and conflicting definition, in the Health and Safety Code:
§ 481.134. DRUG-FREE ZONES. (a) In this section:
(4) "Premises" means real property and all buildings and appurtenances pertaining to the real property.
So you can carry weapons on school grounds other than buildings (I'm simplifying here), but not illegal drugs.

In general, I think the legislature has done a poor job of using the terms premises, property, real property, and land consistently.

Likely some case law applies to these issues.

- Jim

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#26

Post by srothstein »

Frankie,

You have the general idea down right. Historically, premises was not specifically defined as a building, but aas the real estate you owned. When we gained CHL and they put 46.035 in (with the changes), they added a definition of premises.

I have never heard of anyone who defined premises as just a building for anything other than 46.03 and 46.035 before, but I can understand the Ft. Worth officer's argument. Based on the code construction act, it can be argued that premises now has a very specific definition ofr weapons, and does mean just a building. On the hunting and fishing excuse, it just gets confusing. I have certainly done fishing inside a bulding (as have many kids at the boat show every year), though I have never hunted inside one (other than for people).

It is going to take a court case to make it clear, or the lege writing a new exception. I think th juries would use common sense, and I don't think anyone is going to ask Ronnie Earle for his interpretation.
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frankie_the_yankee
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#27

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

OK Stephan,

So I'm on my little 7.5 acre spread on a dead end road off a state highway and I'm on my garden tractor cutting my grass wearing my pistola in a IWB with no cover garment. (The grip of the pistol shows.)

As I swing by my front fence (inside the fence) a DPS Trooper happens to ride by and sees the gun.

Do I have a problem?

And as I've said many times, I OC all the time at home, (meaning all over the property) and I've never given it so much as a second thought. I also have a 25 yd bullseye range set up on part of the property, and I certainly OC there, as does the occassional guest.
Last edited by frankie_the_yankee on Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AEA
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#28

Post by AEA »

Personally, I don't think you would have any problem at all.

I OC on my piddly 1/2 Acre out in the Country. And that's with OWB and 2 Mags!

And I also believe it has NOTHING to do with CHL.
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#29

Post by srothstein »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:OK Stephan,

So I'm on my little 7.5 acre spread on a dead end road off a state highway and I'm on my garden tractor cutting my grass wearing my pistola in a IWB with no cover garment. (The grip of the pistol shows.)

As I swing by my front fence (inside the fence) a DPS Trooper happens to ride by and sees the gun.

Do I have a problem?

And as I've said many times, I OC all the time at home, (meaning all over the property) and I've never given it so much as a second thought. I also have a 25 yd bullseye range set up on part of the property, and I certainly OC there, as does the occassional guest.
I have always understood the law as you being 100% legal in this situation. I was just pointing out the logic of how the one officer could get his point of view.

Now, if your 7.5 acres is in Travis County, and the cop agees with Earle on noone should have a gun, you might have a rpoblem until the jury heard about it.
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frankie_the_yankee
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#30

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

srothstein wrote: Now, if your 7.5 acres is in Travis County, and the cop agees with Earle on none should have a gun, you might have a problem until the jury heard about it.
Nah. I'm in Bastrop County. Any time the weather is good I can hear gunfire from a few different directions.

A recent attempt to establish county regulations limiting shooting on lots of less than 10 acres ran into a buzz saw of grass roots resistance and was summarily dropped. I think some restrictions on shooting will ultimately be adopted, but only for very small lots in the 1 to 2 acre range.
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