Uvalde School shooting

[Paladin]

https://www.fox26houston.com/news/uvald ... g-response

Sounds like the class room door was unlocked, even though there was gun fire outside, before the BG entered the school.

Police Chief didn’t understand he was in charge.

Purposely didn’t bring his radio as it would slow him down.

BG locked the classroom door and they spent 40 minutes trying to get a key.

School classrooms all have windows to the out side.

The early reports say that there were ORDERS not to go in the school. Someone gave those orders. For them to be followed it had to be the person in charge. Standard procedure is not to wait, but go in immediately. That did not happen because someone in authority gave the order.

The report from the unarmed mom who went in the building was that no police were inside. She got in the building without a key, while the chief ordered law enforcement to stay out.

Besides, when you have an active shooter you don't need keys. You shoot the door open.

Also, obviously you can engage the shooter from outside through the windows... again, no key required.

I wish the chief would say his lies under oath so he could get some add on charges.

Isn't that what shotgun breaching rounds are for?

Absolutely!

[BigGuy]

I wish the chief would say his lies under oath so he could get some add on charges.

[03Lightningrocks]

Wouldn’t the alleged shoes of the victim be evidence? Also, how do the shoes have no blood stains on them in light of McConaghey’s claim that those were the only way to identify the body?
Obviously though the picture on the left could be photoshopped….

Those don't look like little kids shoes, so I believe it. More acting from Hollyweird

Not to sound morbid but I also questioned how shoes that came off of a child who was shot and layed bleeding in a pile of other bleeding children would be so clean. Not a blood stain on them?

[RoyGBiv]

As well as the USC that defines the Militia particularly the Unorganized Militia which is specifically NOT the National Guard as being all Males between the ages of 18 and 45.

I’ve had that conversion before with others. My take is this…

The 2A doesn’t say "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of militia members to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

What it says is, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Thus, you do not lose your RKBA simply because you are beyond the age of 45—which was 25 years ago for me personally. The 2A doesn’t say your RKBA is age dependent. It says it shall not be infringed.

Absent age-of-majority laws, theoretically you would have the right from birth. In a virtuous society, it is the minor child's parents who determine if and when the child is mature enough to begin to exercise their RKBA…not the state. In fact, the founders wrote emphatically about the role of virtue in self-governance and liberty:
https://sovereignnations.com/2019/04/12 ... e-freedom/

Both George Washington and John Adams stated unequivocally that our system of gov’t won’t work without a virtuous population. Why else do you think that the left is doing everything it can to eliminate virtuosity in our youth? The DNC can’t come right out and say that they reject our constitutional republic and seek to overthrow it. They would be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail. Instead, they go after capturing our children by deliberately attempting to disconnect them from virtuosity.

Nobody with a brain can argue the importance of this. How many of us were around firearms from a young age, with nary an issue? How did this not result in mass shootings and a plague of accidental homicides? It didn’t result in those things—at least not nearly to the extent that they do today—because we made the cardinal virtues a regular part of child-rearing and education. Today, instead of teaching the virtues, we teach our children to explore the teacher's personal sexual pathologies and to learn how to put on drag queen makeup. Instead of learning about American exceptionalism's basis in liberty, they learn about America's systemic racism and gender oppression. They learn about the "unfairness" of capitalism instead of the horrors of communism. They lear; that right and wrong are relative. And on and on and on.

The left is an existential threat to our nation's political health.

Very well said TAM.

[wheelgun1958]

A few dead bodies are a part of communist revolution.

[KC5AV]

The early reports say that there were ORDERS not to go in the school. Someone gave those orders. For them to be followed it had to be the person in charge. Standard procedure is not to wait, but go in immediately. That did not happen because someone in authority gave the order.

Not that I agree with the way things were handled, but have those early reports been substantiated? Do we know for a fact that there were orders given to stay outside? We all know how reports change as more information becomes available.

[Paladin]

The early reports say that there were ORDERS not to go in the school. Someone gave those orders. For them to be followed it had to be the person in charge. Standard procedure is not to wait, but go in immediately. That did not happen because someone in authority gave the order.

Not that I agree with the way things were handled, but have those early reports been substantiated? Do we know for a fact that there were orders given to stay outside? We all know how reports change as more information becomes available.

80 minutes passed between when officers were first called to the school at 11:30 a.m. to when a tactical team entered locked classrooms and killed the gunman at 12:50 p.m., McCraw said.

...The delayed response runs contrary to commonly taught active shooter protocol, established after the Columbine school shooting of 1999, to stop the shooter as quickly as possible and even bypass helping the injured.

..."The levels of failure are just incredible, beyond belief," said Anthony Barksdale, the former acting Baltimore police commissioner.

CNN

Individual officers are have specific training to take action, no need to wait for authorization... unless ordered to stand down.

[Paladin]

As Shooting Continued, Officers Questioned Commander’s Decision to Wait

From the first minutes after a gunman began shooting, officers descended on Robb Elementary School. Local police from the town of Uvalde. County sheriff’s deputies. Agents from the federal Border Patrol...chief, Pedro Arredondo, had ordered the assembled officers to hold off on storming the two adjoining classrooms where the gunman had already fired more than 100 rounds at the walls, the door and the terrified fourth-graders locked inside with him, the state police said.

...Specially trained agents from the Border Patrol, who arrived more than 40 minutes after the shooting had begun, had yelled for permission to go in and confront the gunman. “What is your problem?” they asked, according to an official briefed on the response....Ultimately, the police officers assembled outside won permission to enter the classroom.

...Officers were told, under Chief Arredondo’s direction, that the situation had evolved from one with an active shooter — which would call for immediately attacking the gunman, even before rescuing other children — to one with a barricaded subject, which would call for a slower approach, officials said.

That appeared to be an incorrect assessment, according to the state police director, Steven McCraw: Gunfire could sporadically be heard inside the rooms, including on continuing 911 calls by the children.

[Paladin]

...the gunman came bounding out of the front door with a backpack and a duffel bag and jumped into his grandmother’s pickup truck. “He didn’t know how to drive,” said Gilbert Gallegos, the couple’s son, who relayed their account. “He was just revving, pushing down on the gas. Finally, he peels out, and the tires are throwing pebbles all over.”

NYT

I'll say it again, I don't think the murderer could have done this awful thing without outside assistance. Getting the money, the rides to the store to purchase his firearms, ammo, training, motivation, etc

[Paladin]

Ten days after the shooting, The New York Times reported that a group of U.S. Border Patrol agents ignored a directive spoken into their earpieces not to enter the room. The Times has since reported that Arredondo did not object when the team entered the room.

Hyde said if a directive delaying entry was issued, it did not come from Arredondo, but the Times reported that someone was issuing orders at the scene. Hyde said he did not know who that person was. The Border Patrol declined to comment.

Expert analysis

A police officer intentionally ditching his radio while answering a call? “I’ve never heard anything like that in my life,” said Steve Ijames, a police tactics expert and former assistant police chief of Springfield, Missouri.

The discarded radio, the missing key and the apparent lack of an incident commander are some of questions raised by experts about the response of Arredondo and the various agencies involved.

Officers are trained never to abandon their radios, their primary communication tool during an emergency, said Ijames. That Arredondo did so the moment he arrived on scene is inexplicable, he said.

Ijames added that it is “inconceivable” that Arredondo’s officers did not have a plan to access any room or building on campus at any moment, given that the school district makes up the entirety of the tiny force’s jurisdiction.

...Active-shooter protocols developed after the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School, where a slow police response delayed medical care that could have saved several victims, train police to confront shooters immediately, without waiting for backup and without regard for their personal safety. An active-shooting training that Uvalde school district police attended in March stressed these tactics, warning that responders likely would be required to place themselves in harm’s way.

texastribune

There would have been difficulty targeting the murderer through the windows due to the lights being out, but its difficult to believe that shotgun/rifle fire would not have opened the door.

[Mike S]

There would have been difficulty targeting the murderer through the windows due to the lights being out, but its difficult to believe that shotgun/rifle fire would not have opened the door.

Shotgun breaching is definitely a technique, but I've never done it on metal doors with metal door jams ((one statement somewhere in the news stated there was a metal door jam; I'm assuming that meant the door frame was metal, & not that there was some metal bar or locking device on the door)). ((Caveat: we breached metal laminate doors that were foam filled, so I'm not saying there isn't a technique for ballistic breaching of metal doors, just that I don't recall ever doing it with a door hung on a metal door frame, like found in commercial settings. We used explosive breaching for all kinds of doors, & all I remember doing with metal door frames was explosive breaching)).

From what we were taught on ballistic breaching, rifles & pistols were absolutely a no-go due to the injury hazard of high velocity solid projectiles over penetrating into the room (non-combatants/hostages in room) or ricochet hazard to assaulters in hallway/outside of room. Now, if there was a clear PID of the shooter thru a door window, I would have placed several rounds of 5.56 thru the window or door in hopes rounds would penetrate & at least wound the nutjob.

Regarding the training conducted in March, I'm wondering if the training included live-fire, or just dry-fire or force-on-force. And if live fire training, did it include mechanical, ballistic, or explosive breaching techniques. I am willing to bet the BORTAC guys are proficient at breaching, but a small town PD, even with a small town SWAT TM, wouldn't likely have proficiency with breaching.

[The Annoyed Man]

A few dead bodies are a part of communist revolution.

I’m not down with them breaking my eggs to make their omelet.

[Paladin]

There are plenty of established methods for busting down doors: Four Dynamic Breaching Methods for Busting Down Doors

[Paladin]

So I ran the numbers. With substantial assistance from Border Patrol, Pete Arredondo took ~80 minutes (4,800 seconds to stop the shooting in Uvalde).

Jack Wilson took 6 seconds to stop the shooting at West Freeway Church of Christ.

So Jack Wilson was 4800/6 = 800 times faster at resolving the situation. And Jack was a volunteer who wasn't living off school taxes.

So Jack wins hands down on both speed and cost.

[baseballguy2001]

Paldin has a very good point. Had the police stopped handcuffing & detaining parents who were trying to rescue their children, and went after the BG, how ever they were armed, there may well had been more survivors. 10 regular, armed citizens with Glocks (or similar) will stop one BG with an AR-15 every time. If the cops were going to stand down, then they should have handed their weapons over and allowed citizens to stop the threat.