Liquor Store Carry???

[Dan20703]

From what I read in the Penal Code 46.035, (b), (1), I should be allowed to carry legally into a liquor store for purchase. There is no "on site consumption". Am I correct?

Reason I brought this up is that a brand new 51% appeared in a liquor store I visit occasionally. I'm guessing they don't have the correct sign.

[seamusTX]

Correct on both counts.

- Jim

[Dan20703]

Correct on both counts.

- Jim

So, with the incorrect sign if I enter the store while carrying I am not breaking any laws?

[Dragonfighter]

Correct on both counts.

- Jim

So, with the incorrect sign if I enter the store while carrying I am not breaking any laws?

Are you referring to the 51% sign? If that is posted at a package store it is incorrect and you are not obligated to obey it. TABC regulates which signs go where BTW and they can be fined or lose their license for posting incorrectly. What's more, if an establishment does derive 51% of its sales in liquor for on premise consumption and fails to post the proper sign, your still good. The onus is on them to comply with TABC code and not you to figure whether the bar in the restaurant is big enough or busy enough to be 51% OPC alcohol sales.

[seamusTX]

Are you referring to the 51% sign? If that is posted at a package store it is incorrect and you are not obligated to obey it.

That is correct. The only signs have the force of law on a package liquor store are the one saying it is a felony to carry a weapon without a license, and a 30.06 sign if they choose to post one.

What's more, if an establishment does derive 51% of its sales in liquor for on premise consumption and fails to post the proper sign, your still good. The onus is on them to comply with TABC code and not you to figure whether the bar in the restaurant is big enough or busy enough to be 51% OPC alcohol sales.

That is unfortunately not the case. It is illegal to carry in a 51% establishment, regardless of whether they have the correct signage.

As a practical matter, if you're minding your business, it will never be an issue.

- Jim

[pgsulins]

just ask the clerk where he wants you to sit so you can start drinking. When he says that you cant drink here, point out that his 51% sign is posted wrong.

[shootthesheet]

Contact TABC and they will make them take it down. I personally would not carry there until the sign came down.

[MoJo]

No sense in making yourself a test case.

[Dragonfighter]

GOVERNMENT CODE
§ 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Once the TABC has determined that the business derives 51% of its income from on premise consumption of hooch, then they are to post the "51" sign. Now the nifty thing, or the pain in the neck aspect of the law is that very few codes stand alone.

PENAL CODE
§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person: (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

How can I "...intentionally, knowingly or recklessly..." carry a concealed handgun where > 51% of sales is for on premise consumption if it is not posted? If it offers anything other than alcohol sales, or in the rare instance where you have the combination bar/carry out store there is no practical way of knowing whether 51% is OPC alcohol or not. That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" or something akin to it, whether it was posted or not.

[seamusTX]

How can I "...intentionally, knowingly or recklessly..." carry a concealed handgun where > 51% of sales is for on premise consumption if it is not posted? ... That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" or something akin to it, whether it was posted or not.

Exactly. Every adult pretty much knows what a bar is on sight.

Also keep in mind that in order to be arrested, a sequence of events must occur that leads to the police arriving. Most of the time, that includes the CHL holder acting carelessly or rashly.

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

I personally would not carry there until the sign came down.

Why? The sign means nothing. It is not like the 30.06 sign.

The law simply states that you cannot carry into a place that has a permit or license issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. It makes no mention of a sign. There is no defense if you carry into a 51% place that is not posted. There is no offense to carry into a place that posts a 51% sign if it is not a 51% place.

[M9FAN]

... That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" ...

Mmmmmmmmm..., Blue Moon. Suddenly I'm thirsty...

[srothstein]

Again, the important part is what the TABC has determined on the sales. There are now package stores that sell for on premises consumption also (wine-only package stores may do this) and have legal 51 signs.

Ask to see the actual TABC license and look for the "Sign=Red" line. This is what will confirm to you that the premises is off limits according to TABC. If he does not have this line on the license (it will instead read "Sign=Blue"), then you can carry and notify TABC that he has the wrong signs.

[Odin]

How can I "...intentionally, knowingly or recklessly..." carry a concealed handgun where > 51% of sales is for on premise consumption if it is not posted? ... That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" or something akin to it, whether it was posted or not.

Exactly. Every adult pretty much knows what a bar is on sight.

Also keep in mind that in order to be arrested, a sequence of events must occur that leads to the police arriving. Most of the time, that includes the CHL holder acting carelessly or rashly.

- Jim

I understand what you're saying, but it's not always that simple.

For example, inthe city of McKinney there are not supposed to be any "bars". The city will approve a business that sells alcohol for on site consumption but they must derive more than 51% of their income from food sales. Several businesses in McKinney sell a lot of alcohol for on site consumption, and if you entered those businesses on a weekend night you would think that there's no way they could be anything other than a "51% bar", yet they are not posted 51%.

For a steak house it's easy to sell more food than alcohol and still have high alcohol sales doe to the high price of food, but for a "sports bar" type of place with food I don't know how they manage to sell more bar food than booze in some of these places. One little sports bar near me does $80K-$100K per month in alcohol sales and their menu is typical inexpensive bar food. The place is packed daily with drinkers. It's not posted 51%. Something seems fishy.

I suspect that some of these businesses are not being completely honest (there's no way one bar close to my house sells more food than alcohol) in their reporting in order to maintain their license, and some of them probably should be posted as 51% establishments, but if they are reporting their numbers in a way that allows them to not be a 51% establishment and they do not post a red 51% sign then I assume that a CHL holder is legal to carry in that establishment.

[seamusTX]

I suspect that some of these businesses are not being completely honest ... in their reporting in order to maintain their license, and some of them probably should be posted as 51% establishments, but if they are reporting their numbers in a way that allows them to not be a 51% establishment and they do not post a red 51% sign then I assume that a CHL holder is legal to carry in that establishment.

I think that is correct. If you read the exact wording of PC §46.035, it's the TABC decision that makes a bar a 51% establishment, making possession of a firearm there a felony.

- Jim